Is Apple really inventive?

Opinion on Apple as a company

  • Apple is the most honorable

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    2
  • Poll closed .

NeverBackDown

AMD Enthusiast
Please only pick 2 op[tions in the poll! Pick one of the top 2 and one of the bottom 2.

So for starters i will start by saying i am not a huge fan of apple(i actually really don't like them) but i will try my hardest to keep this unbiased and i encourage all others to try as well.

I was browisng on Youtube and came across this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFeC25BM9E0

Now even before i watched the video i agreed with the points made, just not in as much detail as these guys did. So it got me thinking how the future will turn out for the industry as a whole. And if everything goes Apples way... Will they become a monopoly? If so that is illegal here in the US and they would get in trouble(i do not know the punishments) and possibly kicked out of the US.

Whats your take on all this? Inventive or not?
 
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I don't really like this guy , but I do kind of agree with what he's saying. Apple is slowing the industry down a bit. It is interesting to see all the products that most people thought Apple had invented , but instead stold the idea and and sued anyone that came close to it. But after all , that's how Microsoft got started, by stealing ideas and doing that same thing (suing the original manufacturer out of business).
So I don't think Apple is really that inventive , some of their ideas are new, but most of the technology they used is not.

I also don't like Apple , mostly from the Apple - Samsung lawsuit.
 
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Ya all business related stuff is usually never positive. So it is no surprise that more than 1 company in the world has done this, just apple took it to the extreme.

I personally also do not like the guy in the vid, just seems to arrogant. But all his points are facts and are true so not much you can argue with. He was only talking about hardware but in the brief moment he talked about software stating the OSX10 is based off of Unix, that really just shows how uninnovative Apple is and more credit should go to where it is do.

I am surprised that other companies still do business with Apple, probably because they think they can make more money if they do despite being sued. Sad but true. And yes i just did reference Metallicas song:p
 
Before I say my opinion I just wanted to state my previous experience with Apples products. I currently own an iPhone 5, before that I had a 4S and a 3GS.

I own an iPad 2 and a 17" MacBook Pro (2009 Model) I've also owned the 17" MacBook Pro from 2006, the Powerbook G4 15" from 2005 and the iBook 12" from 2004. I've also owned a bunch of iPods including the iPod Classic 3rd generation and 5th generation and an iPod Touch 2nd generation. I also own an Airport Extreme Router and two Airport Express routers.

Those are all the "main" Apple products I've owned not including things like adapters, cables, headphones, cases etc.

So I'd consider myself quite an Apple fan as obviously I've purchased a lot of their products and my main "life" system right now is my 17" MacBook Pro and my iPhone 5. I use both of those every day of my life for all my personal life stuff.

But I'm under no illusions. Apple really isn't a technology inventor they are a widget maker. Their in the business of building better widgets. Ever since they started with the Apple 1 they have been combining components from other companies to produce a product.

They very rarely invent a technology straight from scratch because the economics of that approach simply aren't profitable. They don't have the scale in their product ranges to make it worthwhile.

Take CPU's for example, they used Motorola and IBM chips because they were the chip designers and fabricators. It takes billions of dollars just to make the facility to fabricate a microprocessor and that's before we get in to the R&D required to design the processor itself.

This is no different to what HP, Lenovo, Dell or even Microsoft do. People might say Microsoft invented the XBOX 360. They didn't invent its parts they just combined lots of different components together to make the product. Graphics by ATi, CPU by IBM, Optical Drive by Toshiba.

The thing that makes Apple special, the reason they are so successful is not because they invent things before other companies it's that they wait they bide their time and they do it the best way they know how. They integrate, they make the exterior of the product look gorgeous, they make it look desirable.

Let me give a realistic example. The iPad. Apple didn't get there first, I would consider the first modern tablets, the ones we can actually use in a meaningful way as popping up around 2002-2003. The Microsoft Windows XP Tablet edition OS ushered that time period into the Tablet era.

But the products were slow, they were bulky, they were tacky and plasticy, they got very hot in your hand, the battery life was very poor, the screen resolutions were not great, the input method was laggy and required the use of a pen. And the worst of all they cost a lot of money over $1500 for a decent model.

There were simply too many compromises for them to ever be popular. Now what we know is at this time period Apple were actually working on a tablet around this time period. The same time that Microsoft was working on tablets, Apple was too. We know this because it leaked. You can view pictures of it here: http://www.cultofmac.com/179724/app...-inch-screen-was-3-times-thicker-than-ipad-2/

Now if Apple had this in 2002-2004 (Lets say 2003). Why didn't they release it? Well just look at that prototype. It's 12" in size, very bulky, uses the iBook casing, its battery life is more than likely around 2 hours or less. It would cost as much as an iBook would due to it using the same parts (About $999 on the low-end 12" iBook so about a thousand bucks) and it needed a pen as an input method still. It had all the pitfalls that the tablets on the market had.

Apple waited. And then we got the iPad. The first tablet that really worked. It was less than half the price of a mid-range notebook. Hours upon hours of battery life with days of standby time, you can use a bluetooth pen with it (with pressure sensitivity) or your fingers, it's light enough to hold in one hand while using it with the other hand, it has a very high resolution screen.

The only thing Apple did here was wait for the technology to mature. They went with ARM over x86 because it was the logical choice to get the product they wanted out. It wouldn't have been a success if it burned your hand while using it or only lasted 30 minutes to an hour per battery cycle.

Apples vision is their ability to be patient. Waiting for that right moment when all the parts they need are ready to be combined to make a product a reality and they continually do that before the rest of the market.

iPhone -> Before this smart phones sucked. Lets be frank here, they had dinky little software, the internet on them was poor because of a lack of browser compliance, they needed pens if you had a touch screen. They were very difficult to use aswell. Apple waited for the right time for capacitive touch screens for processors fast enough to hold a big-boy operating system. They had prototypes for this way before the 2007 unveiling. Just biding their time.

iPod -> Wasn't the first MP3 player by a long short. But it was the size of a deck of cards and it was very financially competitive with flash based players due to its Hard Disk. Other MP3 players did have Hard Disks but the rest of the player was bulky to support it. Jon Rubinstein flew to Japan on a trip to do something and while he was there a manufacturer (I believe Toshiba?) showed him this 1.8" Hard Drive they had made. They didn't have a use for it, and neither did he, but he took the prototype back to Apple in america and they realised they could make a small MP3 player with that. The component made the product a reality.

iPad -> Already detailed above, waiting for the components to mature just at the right time made the iPad the first successful tablet, the first mainstream tablet to ever exist. That wasn't just by chance, they could have launched and failed with their 2003 prototype, they waited another 7 years until 2010 before releasing a worthy product and now they are the market leader for a good reason. Everyone else was scrambling to make a tablet in the months leading up to the iPads release due to all the rumors and none of them were as good as what Apple pushed out. Even today you can count the iPad worthy competitors on one hand. The Nexus 10 would be on that list but it only came out a few months ago, we've had iPads now for 3 years already.

And there are other examples too, the Macintosh is famous for Apple taking XEROX's research into GUI's and the Mouse. The fact is, Apple got there first and negotiated a deal for that technology. They didn't invent it just like they didn't invent any of the components in their products I just listed, they were just able to pre-emptively get what they needed to make their product before anybody else.

So some might say ya know, Apple doesn't deserve their success because they don't invent their own technology. I disagree. Apple has brought out some great products and it doesn't really matter where they get the ingredients only that the end result is great. They've had their share of misses, I would not consider the Apple TV a runaway success although they have sold millions of units.

And I also find it a bit silly that this video dismisses Apples biggest advantage, the software. Sure Apple uses a lot of Open Source stuff in their products (Webkit -> KHTML, Mac Kernel -> BSD etc) but they've also built a lot of value in their software that integrated beautifully with their hardware. I love being able to just bring my phone home and have it sync over WiFi with my MacBook Pro. I love being able to play music from my iPhone, Mac or iPad to my stereo over WiFi. I love being able to start an iMessage conversation on my iPhone and then when I get home continue that same conversation on my MacBook Pro with full history from both sides of the conversation already present.

I can't think of any other company that takes integration to such a high level except maybe Google but even they have faltered due to their teams working separately instead of side by side. An example there would be their Messaging platforms. They have gTalk and Google+ both of which have their own IM Messaging platform built in, but they don't sync between them. Similarly their desktop client software doesn't sync notifications so if you for example get a gTalk notification on your PC and Phone if you then react to that notification on one device the notification on the other device doesn't go away. Well it does on iMessage because Apple thought of that already. Better product, not better invention.

Apple didn't invent TCP/IP they didn't invent push notifications but they do them pretty darn well when it comes to their products.

Anyway this post is already so long so I'll stop now, I think I got my point across.
 
You fail to mention Apple sueing left and right, up and down. Explain that?

Also you say they are impatient.... Well the ipad 3 came out around 6 months after the Ipad2 and Ipad 4 is already on the way(last i saw) for some quick money. Do not forget to mention the Ipad mini while granite it technically is a new product it would be debatable if it was rushed out.

On the software side, they use the Unix kernal but a modified version. So they took it and made it better which is not innovative. The only reason why the integrate products so well is because they all run the basic same Kernal which makes it easy to be very compatable. While on the other hand Windows is trying to integrate with Google(android) and that will take more time and R&D for that to also become mature as Apple has.

The only thing i would agree with you is that the Iphone(i really hate saying this) did change the smartphone market and has MADE Apple popular and in market share. Before that at that time hardly anyone knew who Apple was and their Macbook Pros were not all that popular( coming from my point of view of that time).

Apple would be less hated by the people who are honest if they did not sue everyone helping them and also trying not to patent every god damn thing they do.
 
You fail to mention Apple sueing left and right, up and down. Explain that?

Also you say they are impatient.... Well the ipad 3 came out around 6 months after the Ipad2 and Ipad 4 is already on the way(last i saw) for some quick money. Do not forget to mention the Ipad mini while granite it technically is a new product it would be debatable if it was rushed out.

On the software side, they use the Unix kernal but a modified version. So they took it and made it better which is not innovative. The only reason why the integrate products so well is because they all run the basic same Kernal which makes it easy to be very compatable. While on the other hand Windows is trying to integrate with Google(android) and that will take more time and R&D for that to also become mature as Apple has.

The only thing i would agree with you is that the Iphone(i really hate saying this) did change the smartphone market and has MADE Apple popular and in market share. Before that at that time hardly anyone knew who Apple was and their Macbook Pros were not all that popular( coming from my point of view of that time).

Apple would be less hated by the people who are honest if they did not sue everyone helping them and also trying not to patent every god damn thing they do.

Companies have been suing each other for a very long time. Motorola was suing Microsoft over the XBOX 360, Google then took the reigns of that. Microsoft gets patent royalties from Android phone makers and if they don't pay Microsoft sues them.

Everyone is at it, Apple is no different.

Also Windows and Android? What are you talking about lol. And I think you misunderestimate the amount of work that went in to producing the Mach kernel. It's not as simple as just slapping "unix" on to something. Linux, Solaris, FreeBSD, OS X and even Android are all "Unix" defined operating systems but very different. Pretty much every product on the market that uses a multitasking operating system is now based on UNIX except for Microsofts Windows. But even they back in the day (Late 80's early 90's) produced a UNIX operating system (Since abandoned for NT).
 
Yes companies have been sueing eachother but the point was Apple is taking it to the extreme.

Windows and android as in how they integrate with eachother like how apple does with their products.

I do not underestimate how the production process of the modified kernal, i was merely pointing out that it was not innovative because they took it and changed how the UI was(which is hard in itself) and the way it handles things. Then slapping IOS and OSX Mountain Lion and not giving credit where it is due.

I know many many products run off of Unix now a days, it just sucks they are not getting any credit. If they got the credit publicly then that would help them out in many different ways and push them to make better software.
 
Yes companies have been sueing eachother but the point was Apple is taking it to the extreme.

Windows and android as in how they integrate with eachother like how apple does with their products.

I do not underestimate how the production process of the modified kernal, i was merely pointing out that it was not innovative because they took it and changed how the UI was(which is hard in itself) and the way it handles things. Then slapping IOS and OSX Mountain Lion and not giving credit where it is due.

I know many many products run off of Unix now a days, it just sucks they are not getting any credit. If they got the credit publicly then that would help them out in many different ways and push them to make better software.

Ok I understand you're not really an Apple "person" so I can forgive your ignorance about their UNIX marketing. But Apple does not keep it a secret that OS X is based on UNIX in-fact it is one of their selling points and has been prominently featured on their website for over a decade that they offer OS X as a UNIX certified operating system. It even says so within the first sentence of their OS X webpage. http://www.apple.com/osx/what-is/

They have also prominently spoken about it at their keynotes on several occasions.

It is not a secret it is in-fact a selling point.

And Windows is not integrated with Android, not even in the slightest. Microsoft takes royalty money from Android phone makers for infringing Microsofts patents. It is no different to Apple asking Samsung to pay fees for infringing their patents. Samsung however decided not to pay Apples royalties, that is their right. They had a big court case and they were judged as infringing several of Apples patents to the tune of a Billion dollars. Are you suggesting your opinion is worth more than the people in that jury, the lawyers representing both sides or the Judge presiding? That would be a bit arrogant of you to do in my opinion.

Don't forget, Samsung sued Apple right back and lots of companies have sued Apple over the years before Apple did anything to them. They are merely playing the game that they have to play. It is the patent system itself that is screwed up, not Apple.
 
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Ask almost anyone with some computer knowledge if OSX or IOS is really Unix based. Gaurentee you they will say no and then something else. So much for that selling point? The only thing it is doing is giving Unix people credit which i will admit i was wrong on, but the credit is hardly even worth mentioning considering almost know one knows.

So you think Apple sueing other companies for making a similar shaped tablet is ok? Or even sueing other companies for selling a laptop with curved edges? Completely insane. If you did not know that, you did not watch the video
 
Ask almost anyone with some computer knowledge if OSX or IOS is really Unix based. Gaurentee you they will say no and then something else. So much for that selling point? The only thing it is doing is giving Unix people credit which i will admit i was wrong on, but the credit is hardly even worth mentioning considering almost know one knows.

So you think Apple sueing other companies for making a similar shaped tablet is ok? Or even sueing other companies for selling a laptop with curved edges? Completely insane. If you did not know that, you did not watch the video

I'd argue that people that affiliate themselves with having computer knowledge try to distance themselves from Apple as much as possible, as it just seems to be the thing to do.
People not knowing about OSX's roots isn't Apple's fault; they mention it enough.
 
I'd argue that people that affiliate themselves with having computer knowledge try to distance themselves from Apple as much as possible, as it just seems to be the thing to do.
People not knowing about OSX's roots isn't Apple's fault; they mention it enough.

Valid argument. I 100% agree because i have personally seen this happen. People not knowing is not Apples fault? Well i see what you mean but i have personally never seen Apple ever state it used a Unix kernal even though i have done some research on them(not for me) and never found anything on that. But i am just one person and i do not pay attention to them much so i guess i do not count?
 
Valid argument. I 100% agree because i have personally seen this happen. People not knowing is not Apples fault? Well i see what you mean but i have personally never seen Apple ever state it used a Unix kernal even though i have done some research on them(not for me) and never found anything on that. But i am just one person and i do not pay attention to them much so i guess i do not count?

You can speak for yourself, sure, but no, you can't extrapolate your experience and opinions for everyone else.

I don't have the time to look through all the old WWDCs, but i'm fairly sure that the UNIX foundation of OSX is mentioned in some of them as it's used as a selling point.
Plus, along with the big ol'web page on Apple's site, Wikipedia's page on OSX mentions that it's based on UNIX in the very first sentence.

For the vast, vast, vast majority of people it simply doesn't matter. They won't know the difference between UNIX and a MOSFET, but that doesn't mean that Apple's hiding a dirty secret about their OS.
 
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So you think Apple sueing other companies for making a similar shaped tablet is ok? Or even sueing other companies for selling a laptop with curved edges? Completely insane. If you did not know that, you did not watch the video

Indeed. And the fact that it is insane is the reason that these cases were thrown out of European courts. The wast majority of of Apple's case-victories are only applicable in the US.

As for the original question.
No. Apple is not inventive. They have never invented anything. Thay are not even innovative, as pretty much all their products are just copies of something older.

They slow down the industry.

As for their future. Apple is steadily loosing market shares. Even many their loyal long time costumers, are starting to abandon ship.

It seems that shiny commercials and a false image of superiority, does not have the same selling power now that people are so surrounded by technology that they are sure to notice the difference between their new Iphone and a cutting edge device.

They will have to make some serious changes if they are to survive in the long run.And that may well mean redefining the company as a whole.
 
Ok I understand you're not really in the Apple ecosystem so I can forgive your ignorance.
so, because i don't use OSX i can't really have a valid opinion about it and using it would give me some sort of a revelation? now that's ironic.
i never gave the slightest amount of f'cks about smartphones and tablets because i have no use for them, i don't care who invented them, i don't care who was the best one, it's just overpriced toys with minimal use anyways.
All i can base my opinion on about Apple is 1) the userbase 2) the company's behaviour and 3) the price/performance ratio
1) is either professional Adobe users, spoiled brats or businessmen
2) rectangles with rounded corners, i guess that sums that up
3) terrible.
 
so, because i don't use OSX i can't really have a valid opinion about it and using it would give me some sort of a revelation? now that's ironic.
i never gave the slightest amount of f'cks about smartphones and tablets because i have no use for them, i don't care who invented them, i don't care who was the best one, it's just overpriced toys with minimal use anyways.
All i can base my opinion on about Apple is 1) the userbase 2) the company's behaviour and 3) the price/performance ratio
1) is either professional Adobe users, spoiled brats or businessmen
2) rectangles with rounded corners, i guess that sums that up
3) terrible.

1. You weren't the person I was quoting.

2. I was referring to him stating Apple doesn't mention OS X is based on UNIX. I said he was ignorant of this fact as he doesn't use an Apple product and isn't involved in Apples ecosystem where they clearly state OS X is based on UNIX in the very first sentence of the OS X product page on their website and they have mentioned it is based on UNIX in almost every developer conference where they have introduced a new version of the operating system. If he used OS X he would know this, thus I said what I said.

Ask almost anyone with some computer knowledge if OSX or IOS is really Unix based. Gaurentee you they will say no and then something else. So much for that selling point? The only thing it is doing is giving Unix people credit which i will admit i was wrong on, but the credit is hardly even worth mentioning considering almost know one knows.

This is a bit of a silly thing to be nitpicking about. Most people do not know what a Kernel is let alone what UNIX is. Most people don't know what NT means even if they've heard of Windows NT. These are very minute details to average computer users.

So you think Apple sueing other companies for making a similar shaped tablet is ok? Or even sueing other companies for selling a laptop with curved edges? Completely insane. If you did not know that, you did not watch the video

I did watch the video from start to finish. And you're putting words in my mouth, I didn't say it was okay I said the system (the patent system) is broken and that everyone is doing it. You cannot just point the finger at Apple and say they are in the wrong because they aren't the only ones doing it. Microsoft are doing it, Google are doing it etc - Why point out Apple and not fix the system that allows the abuse evenly? It shows favouritism.

Indeed. And the fact that it is insane is the reason that these cases were thrown out of European courts. The wast majority of of Apple's case-victories are only applicable in the US.

As for the original question.
No. Apple is not inventive. They have never invented anything. Thay are not even innovative, as pretty much all their products are just copies of something older.

They slow down the industry.

As for their future. Apple is steadily loosing market shares. Even many their loyal long time costumers, are starting to abandon ship.

It seems that shiny commercials and a false image of superiority, does not have the same selling power now that people are so surrounded by technology that they are sure to notice the difference between their new Iphone and a cutting edge device.

They will have to make some serious changes if they are to survive in the long run.And that may well mean redefining the company as a whole.

With 146 Billion dollars in the bank Apple could not sell another product until 2022 while still spending the same amount they do now on Research and Employee Pay and still be fine.

Furthermore research completely contradicts what you just said about people leaving the iOS platform for others.

In a survey of 16,000 U.S. smartphone users, the company found 91 percent of iPhone owners plan to purchase another iPhone when it's time to upgrade, while for Android the number is just 76 percent. And, three quarters of those looking to switch from Android plan to buy an iPhone.

Source: http://allthingsd.com/20130426/androids-leaky-bucket-loyalty-gives-apple-the-edge-over-time/ (Posted April 26th 2013)

The stats speak for themselves.
 
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Yes, Vicey.

What's the point in a patent system if it means nothing? If i were Apple i would be doing the same (suing anyone i could).

What might be "insane" is that people can patent some of the things they do.

At the end of the day, Apple is just playing the game with the hand they've been dealt.

Fun fact: The iPad was "invented" before the iPhone. When Jobs saw the technology they quickly shelved the idea and used the same technology to build a smartphone.
 
I think we are at the point were we can safely call fundie-fanboy on this thread and be on our way.

When a person is so religiously defending a brand, even in the face of reality, I don't really feel like wasting my time.

Squirrel out.
 
I think we are at the point were we can safely call fundie-fanboy on this thread and be on our way.

When a person is so religiously defending a brand, even in the face of reality, I don't really feel like wasting my time.

Squirrel out.

You posted your ideas and thoughts and you said some incorrect information. I posted facts from an independent survey company to contradict what you said and your comeback is inferring I'm religiously defending a brand and turning this thread into a fanboy thing?

You can clearly see in my signature that I'm a PC user. Even my server runs Windows. I think Android is a great product too. I want Google glass.

I even like the Surface! :lol:

What I hate though, is when opinion is passed off as fact. The fact is what Apple is doing through the courts is no different to what their competitors are doing. The fact is Apple does promote UNIX on their OS X product pages. The fact is the patent system that every company is exploiting is the problem.

Typed from my Windows self-built water cooled kick ass PC. Not a Mac.
 
Don't feel like quoting Vicey because of the long post. So i am referring to him the whole time.

You call me ignorant. Well see this is ironic considering you are. I don't use an apple product? Way to assume you know everything, i happen to use an Itouch4 and i hardly ever use it anymore because it's a waist of time. My PC does more than what it does.

Nitpicky? No i said ask people with computer knowledge not the average person. So your argument here is getting desperate and stretching it there.

I point out apple because they are sueing like crazy over the lamest possible things such as curved edges in laptops or tablets looking like theirs in the slighest possible way. They want 100% dominance in the world. I hope they realize the US will break them apart if they become a monopoly because they are illegal.

No one cares if they have 146billion in the bank? Great for them! Why not help out with charitys or people in need if you have so much money? There's a thought.

Ok many people want an Iphone. Welll if apple keeps doing what they are now then good bye and all those Iphones will become worthless.
 
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