amp for headphones

[Avet]

Yes you can repeatedly say it but from what other people have said this is not true. Do you have any evidence to backup your claim?

Have you tried doing audio production on integrated audio?

I don't want to start the war. Nor I want to force you my opinion. I am telling you from my personal experience as a musician, and amateur audio producer that the dedicated cards are better. More money, more music. For a regular user, there is no difference at all. There is no point in arguing if mp3, and FLAC sound the same to you.

 

[dabar_šolta]

.... But let's ignore science and just make recommendations based on reviews on computer sites.

For the best sound he needs 96khz and a good amp. Period. That way he can play back anything of any quality (even direct WAV rips) and so on and can drive his headphones properly.

When I vouched for the Little Dot MK1 I did so comparing it to amps and so on at much higher price ranges. It absolutely crushes at its price level and beats much more expensive amps.

dont ignore science please at least when simple audio is at question.
while i agree that modern mbo soundcards are better than old was,they will never be as good.
why are external and dedicated soundcards better than motherboard integrated are that starting with pcb layout that is made to suit audio needs not cpu vrm ,pcie routing or what is most inportant on mbos and second for external soundcards its distance from switching regulators and isolation from their emi.

if soundcard is capable of 96khz sampling rate that actualy means nothing about sound quality other than that soundcard uses some modern chipset, what is also not measure of quality.

also using online review sites as audio quality judgment is not clever as most of that sites are driven by profit to some (either) manufacturer.

what is important is if he likes to use windows volume control then sound card should be 24bit as to not loose quality on lowest volume settings,that is only applicable when soundcard isnt hid compatibile and moving windows slider changes stream data not gain value in dac/adc chip.

i measure soundcards for output voltage ,freq,thd,imd,noise,etc which are standard tests for audio quality and accepted all over world in all serious audio circles.years of listening means nothing sry.

why i recomend that soundblaster xfi, becouse it contains hardware parts of high quality and very nice pcb, it has more than enough miliwatts of output power at its headphone amplifier ,it has dedicated line outputs ,optical output hardware controled digital volume control and is very cheap for what kind of parts are inside and how good it measures and seems to fit all his needs perfectly. also its 24bit/192khz if he realy needs 192k. plugging in headphones disables speaker output.

i have tested said soundblaster card with koss porta pro ,sennheiser px100, superlux hd668b ,akg k240mk2(similar impendance if not same as game zero if its 50ohm version of game zero) and few 16ohm cheap low impendance headphones and in all cases integrated amplifier performed in-spec.

oh sorry for long post i got carried a bit

 

[Avet]

I am very busy at the moment. But I hope during the summer i will catch some free time, and do a proper review on audio components. I don't have any scientific data now, so i can't support my claims.

 

[AlienALX]

Are you talking about this kind https://www.amazon.com/Little-Dot-6JI-standard-Headphone/dp/B00A2QM5O6

I saw lot of option and diffrent looking mk1

I also saw creative amp e1 in my country with nice price
They good?

Yes, that one As for Creative? they are hardly industry leaders when it comes to sound quality. They are not proper hifi/headfi gear, just half decent amps. They are no match for a real amp designed for music.

As i have said before. On board cards have bad DACs. Amplifying rubbish sound is pointless...

I think you lack understanding. If a sound card can produce a certain sound quality then it does so using industry regulations. Back in the day these could be recorded and tested but for the last four years at least onboard sound cards are every bit as good as any add in card, dependent on the spec of course. If a sound card can play back 96khz these days it generally fares very well against other sound cards. As I said, some people confuse output volume with actual quality.

That bearded bloke (American, forgot his name) tested the theory a couple of years ago. So did Linus and a couple of others.. Tech something he's called? anyhoo, watch the video for a better understanding.

It seems there is some confusion in this thread about computer stuff versus actual real sound stuff. For example, Creative amps are OK but when compared to actual proper headphone amps they fall to the wayside. This is because they are two different products. One is aimed at people who want the best computer gear and the other is aimed at the people who want the best sound quality.

BTW, you do realise that even a DAC is subjective and some people actually prefer digital sound, yes?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFBvvlebSmw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1rXcJuEsy0

Watch those, the latter more importantly.

 

[Thelosouvlakia]

Problem with the intergrated audio solutions on motherboards is that they come with bad amplification circuits, sure, as AlienALX said if a chip says it can do 92KHz in it's datasheet then it will do that, the problem is that then that dac output has to be amplified it is then when a circuit can mess up and distort the sound, the motherboard will output the final amplified signal and the amp might have added noise, hooking that signal on an external amp it will just amplify the imperfections

 

[dabar_šolta]

there is no possible way that mbo soundcard can cope with any correctly designed dedicated one,its very good known why and how. and doesnt have tto do anything with output volume.

there is no such thing as digital sound,"industry regulations" on sound quality are thd+n fr imd etc wich are measured .

as for standalone amps thats whole different story


btw creative makes a lot of products both bad and good, its bad to judge one product by company name and without any real life analysis done. i done some and provided my insight based on real world measurments,as for fiio e10k for good analysis here is link http://nwavguy.blogspot.hr/2012/01/fiio-e10-dac.html

 

[AlienALX]

there is no possible way that mbo soundcard can cope with any correctly designed dedicated one,its very good known why and how. and doesnt have tto do anything with output volume.

Then prove it, otherwise it's just your opinion.

Avet. I would suggest you do some studying and bring yourself up to speed/date.

Here is his chipset.

http://www.realtek.com.tw/products/productsView.aspx?Langid=1&PFid=28&Level=5&Conn=4&ProdID=284

Noting the following of course.

Ten DAC channels support 16/20/24-bit PCM format for 7.1 channel sound playback, plus 2 channels of concurrent independent stereo sound output (multiple streaming) through the front panel output

So you guys are basically telling him to buy a DAC when he already has one.

Seriously, the lack of knowledge is nuts.

I use sound cards yes, but only for more source outputs as I have five amps. These range from an onboard Recon 3D, to a D2X, SB XFI Titanium and so on. As long as they can play back 96khz you are absolutely fine.

Watch the second video if you don't trust modern onboard sound chips and have a look at the data. I think you will be surprised !

The only time I have ever "upgraded" my sound card was when I had a MSI Big Bang Xpower II X79. It sounded wonderful, but the output volume was so quiet I could hear my PC over it.

I bought a SBZ, sounded good and I liked the card but it still did not offer the kick I was looking for so that is when I got into amps.

I have probably the most neutral amp sensible money can buy, so I use that as a basis when I recommend amps. I haven't used a Filo, but I have used several others as well as the one I am recommending. I now use a Little Dot MK2 with a Graham Slee novo (pre-power) but I would swear all day the MK1 sounded every bit as good. It's an amazing amp for the money, that is why it's been around for so long.

But hey, buy whatever amp you want. All I am going to hold solid on is the amp part. I truly believe you do not need a sound card nor a DAC, why would you? you already have both !

 

[Avet]

Then prove it, otherwise it's just your opinion.

Avet. I would suggest you do some studying and bring yourself up to speed/date.

Here is his chipset.

http://www.realtek.com.tw/products/productsView.aspx?Langid=1&PFid=28&Level=5&Conn=4&ProdID=284

Noting the following of course.

Ten DAC channels support 16/20/24-bit PCM format for 7.1 channel sound playback, plus 2 channels of concurrent independent stereo sound output (multiple streaming) through the front panel output

So you guys are basically telling him to buy a DAC when he already has one.

Seriously, the lack of knowledge is nuts.

I use sound cards yes, but only for more source outputs as I have five amps. These range from an onboard Recon 3D, to a D2X, SB XFI Titanium and so on. As long as they can play back 96khz you are absolutely fine.

Watch the second video if you don't trust modern onboard sound chips and have a look at the data. I think you will be surprised !

The only time I have ever "upgraded" my sound card was when I had a MSI Big Bang Xpower II X79. It sounded wonderful, but the output volume was so quiet I could hear my PC over it.

I bought a SBZ, sounded good and I liked the card but it still did not offer the kick I was looking for so that is when I got into amps.

I have probably the most neutral amp sensible money can buy, so I use that as a basis when I recommend amps. I haven't used a Filo, but I have used several others as well as the one I am recommending. I now use a Little Dot MK2 with a Graham Slee novo (pre-power) but I would swear all day the MK1 sounded every bit as good. It's an amazing amp for the money, that is why it's been around for so long.

But hey, buy whatever amp you want. All I am going to hold solid on is the amp part. I truly believe you do not need a sound card nor a DAC, why would you? you already have both !

I have no desire to argue with you anymore m8. You are so strong with your beliefs that we who say that dedicated cards are better are wrong, and ask us to prove our claims to you. And yet you take it for absolute truth that you are right and there is no difference, and you didn't put any proof to support your claims. So until i have some proof, and do proper research with numbers, and science i am not part of this discussion anymore. Bye.

 

[dabar_šolta]

Then prove it, otherwise it's just your opinion.

...

So you guys are basically telling him to buy a DAC when he already has one.

Seriously, the lack of knowledge is nuts.

I use sound cards yes, but only for more source outputs as I have five amps. These range from an onboard Recon 3D, to a D2X, SB XFI Titanium and so on. As long as they can play back 96khz you are absolutely fine.

.
.

.but I would swear all day the MK1 sounded every bit as good..

But hey, buy whatever amp you want. All I am going to hold solid on is the amp part. I truly believe you do not need a sound card nor a DAC, why would you? you already have both !

belief doesnt work in electronics ,measurments do.
i told you i make soundcards so it is imperative that i am up to speed.

how do you sync multiple soundcards for multiple outputs in same time? that is not possible,and if you use multiple sound cards for switching outputs thats just wrong.

he basicaly has both dac and headphone amplifier so why you telling him to buy another amplifier when he already has one

on serious note his best bet for his needs is usb powered dac with dedicated headphone amplifier and separate line output with microphone input,preferably 24bit with hid volume control so tracking is perfect on low volumes and quality is not lost. best under 150$ card i know that meets that specs is already mentioned xfi usb.

 

[AlienALX]

OK so let's see your measurements guys.

I look forward to it, cheers.

belief doesnt work in electronics ,measurments do.
i told you i make soundcards so it is imperative that i am up to speed.

Is that why you have posted so much data proving your point?

how do you sync multiple soundcards for multiple outputs in same time? that is not possible,and if you use multiple sound cards for switching outputs thats just wrong.
.

Firstly. I do not sync them I use them separately. I've had no issues doing this. Secondly I use them for outputs because they are all slightly different, and thus lend themselves better to some amps than others. Again, it's all subjective but some may prefer certain DACs to others or certain OP AMPs to others.

I've got them so I use them, simple as that really.

 

[dabar_šolta]

ok i am waiting for your data.

i use simple rightmark audio analyser program because its free and everyone can download it and check to confirm/compare results. for simplicity and easy comparation will record sraight from headphone output but without headphones you will just have to belive my word that performance with headphones is in-spec.

green is creative white is regular quality mbo audio.

 

[AlienALX]

ok i am waiting for your data.

i use simple rightmark audio analyser program because its free and everyone can download it and check to confirm/compare results. for simplicity and easy comparation will record sraight from headphone output but without headphones you will just have to belive my word that performance with headphones is in-spec.

green is creative white is regular quality mbo audio.

Already posted mine. Watch the second video and look at the spec sheet.

SB XFI? how old is that pic? do you have the source for it?

Why does it have XXX over the card you are comparing it to? lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gvqe3tUhG4

The crosstalk is fricking low. And it's like pretty much competing with a USB DAC/AMP solution.Not only that but you get low input lag (since it's your onboard audio) and yeah, it's got a good mic in port which I am recording from now. So I mean I am just really impressed with how far it's come and I really had to share this with you guys.

So there you go, same thing again. This is not 2006.

 

[SPS]

OP are you just requiring this for gaming?

 

[dabar_šolta]

we started wrong and i need to change approach...
where are Your real life measurments? does not exist, same as your knowledge.

pic is from few hours back now but that is not important as soundcards quality doesnt change trough time, you are funny guy i am the source i made measurment by your wish.

other card is hiden becouse it is not important and is there only as example,do record your own mbo soundcard with rmaa and adjust levels to -5db and you will see very similar results to xxx labeled results.

youtube videos are not scientific proof of anything, so please if you dont have some insights based in reality(measurments) you dont have nothing(fricking low is not unit sry,and crosstalk is not main thing to check when checking soundcard quality).

and if you were checking crosstalk he mentiones in video it is around -60dB and that is "frickin awsome" but forgets to say at witch frequency so i assume that he has a bit of brains and used 1kHz as test freq.

at 1kHz sound blaster is at -90dB crosstalk
at 1kHz my xxx mobo is at -71dB crosstalk
picture of freshly made measurments just for you attached

it is indeed 2016 and you still belive in youtube videos what have word "legit" writen with huge letters. he missed whole point of dedicated sound cards what is primary lowering thd+n figure by distance from emi radiation(switched vrms inside pc),added bonus is enough place to route fine pcb and more place to put better part ,so it does have lower crosstalk ,beter noise figures and beter imd as consequence.

 

[dabar_šolta]

OP are you just requiring this for gaming?

regardless the use its probably better to waste 50 bucks on quality product than on "gaming" soundcard

 

[AlienALX]

we started wrong and i need to change approach...
where are Your real life measurments? does not exist, same as your knowledge.

Watch the second video I posted. It's all there for you.

 

[SPS]

regardless the use its probably better to waste 50 bucks on quality product than on "gaming" soundcard

I don't think anyone on this forum would endorse a "gaming" product, but it's important to keep within spec.

 

[yaniv]

Watch the second video I posted. It's all there for you.

What kind of little dot mk1/mk2 ahould i buy?
I saw lot of difrrent options

And i think i can spent around 130euro

 

[AlienALX]

What kind of little dot mk1/mk2 ahould i buy?
I saw lot of difrrent options

And i think i can spent around 130euro

The Little Dot MK1 has a valve/tube pre amp and a solid state amp to drive the headphones.

The MK2 has all valves. No transistors. However, because of that the power output is very very low. I do not recommend using the LDMK2 as you will probably find like me that you need a more powerful amp to drive your headphones.

Can I ask you? how do you find the overall sound? not the volume, the actual sound quality? if you are happy with it at lower volumes then an amp will bring your headphones to life

 

[dabar_šolta]

Watch the second video I posted. It's all there for you.

BTW, posting random pics won't win you a debate.

they are not random pics but exact pics that you wanted. i simply found patch cable and ran 30 second test , real that it cant be more real.

actualy i am not debating with you i provide you with everything you ask from first hand experience,knowledge and measurments ,you provide me youtube video

please buy anything else that is solid state, valves are not good if you seek high fidelity.