We're out out - The Brexit Thread

[Greenback]

What do you mean when polish first came over here? In the 40s ?

No in recent times after joining the EU

I'm not generalising, and as pointed out, I'm not saying 'all', I'm talking from experience. My Mum's parents are extremely homophobic, they basically cut my sister off for being in a same-sex relationship. But that's not because of being far-right, it's because that's just accepted, normal behaivior for their generation. Old-school Christian values, old school Catholic values and stuff.

If even the current Pope can condemn homophobia the way he is doing, that says a lot for how much the world has and is changing. unfortunately there is a generation of people in this country that has a large percentage of people in it, that are stuck on their values. That's fine, I accept that. I can't imagine changing what I believe after 50-60 years of it being drilled into my subconscious.

My in-laws have this, and because I have done everything for my son since he was born, and I'm the 1 he comes to sort of mum/dad in 1 and so I get the in-laws suggesting because all his hugs and cuddles come from a man he is going to be gay, logic of the old

All the points made above about both sides doing stuff, that's exactly the point. It was all bullcrap, all of it. The electorate were not educated sufficiently on the problem, the cause, or the solution. And I don't believe the vote is fair because of that, the result is what it is, I would accept it if as I say the whole thing wasn't such a sh*tshow.

Sorry if spelling mistakes or rushed response, at work and limited time but want to reply

I think the trouble with the EU is even those involved don't know exactly whats going on.


Over the park with my son and 4 kids don't know eachother and in 5 minutes all playing together having fun, isn't it sad the things we lose as we get older

What is peoples opinions on the Lib Dems coming out as a pro-eu equivalent of UKIP? I honestly don't get why people are so upset about it.

I like they are honest, though I question is it to get Votes more than they want the EU

 

[shambles1980]

i saw the referendum as a simple question.
It was about should we be able to govern our selves. Or as i like to see it, are the benefits of being in the eu good enough for you to give up the right to govern your selves?

And i dont see how any amount of anything would be good enough to give up that basic freedom.

how does that affect migration?:

the basics of migration however is.
70% of job positions are filled by word of mouth rather than being posted in the job center.
Low skill native workers compete with low skill eu workers for these positions. and you find that they get filled pretty fast.
Non EU low skill workers or even Professionals non eu workers coming to do low skill work are simply not allowed to come and do that because it does prevent our own low skill workers getting jobs.
Proffessional non eu workers coming to do a professional job "if thy are needed" are allowed to come. and that will be the same for EU workers after free movement is removed.
So migration will still happen, it will just be limited I.E
A professional Eu builder could come here to work, but he could not fill his work force with low skilled EU labourers because there is a surplus of native low skilled labourers.
And that is how it works with any other non eu country right now.

how does it affect subsidies?:

Well being welsh i know that there was a lot of jobs in wales built around the subsidies.
farmers are given money on the amount of arable land they have. these claims go to the Welsh assembly, then people like my mother check the claims and some times have to talk to the farmers and so on to double check figures etc. so these subsidies help the farmers and give a lot of people like my mother jobs,
Now what could happen "although i doubt it will" is the government can decide to keep paying these subsidies and thus keep the workers working and the farmers happy, whilst still saving money compared to doing it via the eu.

other places were given subsidies in exchange for moving industrial areas or fishing areas out of the uk and in to more central European areas.
And combined with forced tariffs on products, and being unable to impose tarifs on imports from else where our self this did lead to the decline of the uk industry.
im not saying that the ones that were shut down could be recoverable now. but the ones that are still open could at the least be able to work at a proffit.

So i would honestly vote out again and again. and no amount of London business men who turn a larger profit being in the eu can convince me otherwise with their scare tactics.

And as for the racists attacking migrants. Well European courts of human rights wont have much of a say soon. so lets throw them all on a huge boat and float em off 1/2 way down the Irish sea for 20 years and see if they calm down a bit after that.

 

[Greenback]

the basics of migration however is.
70% of job positions are filled by word of mouth rather than being posted in the job center.
Low skill native workers compete with low skill eu workers for these positions. and you find that they get filled pretty fast.
Non EU low skill workers or even Professionals non eu workers coming to do low skill work are simply not allowed to come and do that because it does prevent our own low skill workers getting jobs.
Proffessional non eu workers coming to do a professional job "if thy are needed" are allowed to come. and that will be the same for EU workers after free movement is removed.
So migration will still happen, it will just be limited I.E
A professional Eu builder could come here to work, but he could not fill his work force with low skilled EU labourers because there is a surplus of native low skilled labourers.
And that is how it works with any other non eu country right now.

This only goes if those negotiating don't want the free trade as the EU have said free trade only with free movement.

So at the end of the day we could leave the EU and nothing changes

 

[Warchild]

Alot of relevant stuff but won't repost

70% of job positions are filled by word of mouth rather than being posted in the job center. - This is not true. People need to know how to search

Low skill native workers compete with low skill eu workers for these positions. and you find that they get filled pretty fast. - Totally agree with you on this one however, without education, finding a placement is very difficult. So why don't the British value education like the rest of the EU? It has improved but it was horrendous when I lived there.

Non EU low skill workers or even Professionals non eu workers coming to do low skill work are simply not allowed to come and do that because it does prevent our own low skill workers getting jobs. - Not entirely true. With a working VISA and relevant credentials you cannot stop them coming here to work. But yes I believe post/pre brexit, migration won't change one bit.

Freedom of movement is the number 1 entitlement every human being should be allowed to have. You don't own the UK (i mean this in general terms, not an attack on what you stated ) Nobody does, In my eyes stopping or preventing that is the worst oppression imaginable.

What gets my blood boiling is that there are plenty of jobs which are low paid, or unskilled. During my times of hardship in the job centre I often heard Welsh people (not generalising, just saying Welsh instead of Native) refusing jobs because they saw it was beneath them even though they had no qualifications. Not everyone is like that I know but I hate to say this, the British have a huge portion of lazy people who would prefer to leech benefits than work. So you cannot really complain too much when a Slavic lady comes along, happy to do her cleaning job.

And little off topic, but I agree this is the best non violent, non insulting discussion I have seen on the subject.

 

[shambles1980]

This only goes if those negotiating don't want the free trade as the EU have said free trade only with free movement.

So at the end of the day we could leave the EU and nothing changes

well look at it like this..

if the eu dont agree on allowing a free market with no free movement, then we would have to trade with eu countries the same way we trade with the usa, at a tariff of 3% to 10%
Which is better than now.
we would also be able to govern migration.
and everything else that was mentioned above.

in the end even if we get no deal at all from the eu, and leave the single market we would "as a whole" be better off than we are now.
Some areas would be worse off. big business for instance, but they would only stand to make less profit, not a loss..

the foreign affairs people made a report on the 26th of April outlining all of this, even though the torys were pushing for remain. the torys foreign affairs report stated we would be better off even if we could make no deal with the eu.
And infact they seem to think its impossible to make any deal at all because of how the eu works and that the facts are likley to go.
significant % will want to allow the uk to have a deal with no free movement. Because they would like the same sort of deal them self.
And a significant % will want the uk to be denied such privileges, because they would benefit more with free movement. And they dont want others pushing for the same deal..
This is enough right there to prevent a deal being reached.
If by some crazy way enough of them agree to a deal with the uk over no free movement. then that decision still has to be approved by the eu parlament. that wont be approved because it defies one of the 4 main principals of the single market.

this then boils down to a simple matter of there was no deal that was beneficial to both sides and so none could be reached. so we end up selling in to the single market at WTO rules. which is better for us than London wants you to believe.

70% of job positions are filled by word of mouth rather than being posted in the job center. - This is not true. People need to know how to search

Low skill native workers compete with low skill eu workers for these positions. and you find that they get filled pretty fast. - Totally agree with you on this one however, without education, finding a placement is very difficult. So why don't the British value education like the rest of the EU? It has improved but it was horrendous when I lived there.

Non EU low skill workers or even Professionals non eu workers coming to do low skill work are simply not allowed to come and do that because it does prevent our own low skill workers getting jobs. - Not entirely true. With a working VISA and relevant credentials you cannot stop them coming here to work. But yes I believe post/pre brexit, migration won't change one bit.

Freedom of movement is the number 1 entitlement every human being should be allowed to have. You don't own the UK (i mean this in general terms, not an attack on what you stated ) Nobody does, In my eyes stopping or preventing that is the worst oppression imaginable.

What gets my blood boiling is that there are plenty of jobs which are low paid, or unskilled. During my times of hardship in the job centre I often heard Welsh people (not generalising, just saying Welsh instead of Native) refusing jobs because they saw it was beneath them even though they had no qualifications. Not everyone is like that I know but I hate to say this, the British have a huge portion of lazy people who would prefer to leech benefits than work. So you cannot really complain too much when a Slavic lady comes along, happy to do her cleaning job.

And little off topic, but I agree this is the best non violent, non insulting discussion I have seen on the subject.

Even the job center will tell you 70% of the work is not on their database. and that you will find jobs easier by word of mouth than you will trolling through all the web sites.

non eu countrys will not be approved for a working visa to come do a low skilled job. they just arent approved.
EU workers cannot be stopped due to freedom of movement.

untill recently i had never heard of people refusing a job. but with how tax credits and the like works, many people "families specifically" are worse off working. and with 0 hour contracts becoming the norm it is quite appalling to see people starting work and within 3 months be close to eviction because they can no longer afford to pay the rent.
That is not a migration issue per say, it is a privatization of public/council housing issue.
Also there are some rather silly rules governing the tax credits. they do not work off a means basis when you start work and they instead insist that you work a minimum 16 hours a week.
if the job offered to you is less than 16 hours a week and you have a family. and it is not paying "£REDICULOUS" an hour you will not be able to pay rent and buy food and so on. and 0 hour contracts don't help this matter.
But again that is nothing at all to do with the referendum the eu or migration.
Although a single person or a group of single people sharing a house will take those jobs and thrive. a family is treated differently and as a single entity and suffer for that.

 

[Warchild]

well look at it like this..

if the eu dont agree on allowing a free market with no free movement, then we would have to trade with eu countries the same way we trade with the usa, at a tariff of 3% to 10%
Which is better than now.

Trust me on this shambles coming from someone living in Norway, it is not better. We get hammered hard on tariffs so much that for the likes of us, the PC enthusiast, it would force harsh penalties. Think about watercooling, EK in Slovenia, your blocks will rocket in price. Bitspower when I ordered directly from them, I had to pay 30% extra just to get it into the country. I would hate to see that imposed on you guys for everything in the EU.

Even now we still pay tariffs which are too high for any item over £20 to bring it in.

And to export an item, regardless of size, e.g. an i5 3570k to sell to someone on here, I have to pay £35 to get it out even if its just to send to someone in Sweden the neighbouring country.

What UK would have to do is f**k the single market and work on individual deals with the countries. This might be ten times more work but could work in your favour targetting the countries you deem essential, and accepting a harder tariff on countries that are really not of concern.

I can also guarantee that the greedy companies like BMW, Ford, Nissan etc will jump ship and close their factories down. At least Airbus claim they would seek elsewhere but promise that business would continue in the UK albeit at a much lower staff force.

 

[Greenback]

I believe Germany has already said they will be willing for a separate deal outside the eu, it wouldn't surprise me if we would just be better telling the EU to shove it and go for separate deals, and considering France and Germany getting calls for a referendum and Netherlands it's a possibility the EU will fall

 

[Wraith]

As far as Job hunting goes I can tell you it's has become increasingly difficult, the Job Centers offer very little in the way of help or Job vacancies, they are only interested in you as a statistic, the new Universal Credit system which sees you working for your support i.e Voluntary or Work schemes are monumentally flawed. The place to look is and equally where the JC point you are recruitment agencies which have rocketed in number. Just a few off the top of my head are Indeed, Reed, CV-Library, Workcircle, Jobsite, Jobs4, Momentum, Essential recruitment & Inspire every Job Center listing takes you to an external recruitment agency...

Also as an active Job seeker over 25 I can tell you it's proving hard to get my foot in the door anywhere, zero hour contracts and the number of jobs advertised for 18 - 25 year olds says it all. They just don't want to pay you the new "Living wage", I predict it's only going to get worse over the next few years.

 

[Warchild]

As far as Job hunting goes I can tell you it's has become increasingly difficult, the Job Centers offer very little in the way of help or Job vacancies, they are only interested in you as a statistic, the new Universal Credit system which sees you working for your support i.e Voluntary or Work schemes are monumentally flawed. The place to look is and equally where the JC point you are recruitment agencies which have rocketed in number. Just a few off the top of my head are Indeed, Reed, CV-Library, Workcircle, Jobsite, Jobs4, Momentum, Essential recruitment & Inspire every Job Center listing takes you to an external recruitment agency...

Also as an active Job seeker over 25 I can tell you it's proving hard to get my foot in the door anywhere, zero hour contracts and the number of jobs advertised for 18 - 25 year olds says it all. They just don't want to pay you the new "Living wage", I predict it's only going to get worse over the next few years.

That sucks wraith, you should come to Norway. It's not hard to find work here and the salaries are double back home.

Have you tried temp agencies? they often have positions with no contract end meaning after a period of 2years approx the employer has to hire you full time (thank the EU for that policy.) and I like it

 

[Wraith]

That sucks wraith, you should come to Norway. It's not hard to find work here and the salaries are double back home.

Have you tried temp agencies? they often have positions with no contract end meaning after a period of 2years approx the employer has to hire you full time (thank the EU for that policy.) and I like it

All the Agencies (recruitment centers) offer temp work, I've done 2 now but they always weed out the "older" people (+25) they take on doesn't matter whether you work your behind off or have the qualifications, they get what work they can out of you then pass you off to the next agency.

 

[Greenback]

As far as Job hunting goes I can tell you it's has become increasingly difficult, the Job Centers offer very little in the way of help or Job vacancies, they are only interested in you as a statistic, the new Universal Credit system which sees you working for your support i.e Voluntary or Work schemes are monumentally flawed. The place to look is and equally where the JC point you are recruitment agencies which have rocketed in number. Just a few off the top of my head are Indeed, Reed, CV-Library, Workcircle, Jobsite, Jobs4, Momentum, Essential recruitment & Inspire every Job Center listing takes you to an external recruitment agency...

Also as an active Job seeker over 25 I can tell you it's proving hard to get my foot in the door anywhere, zero hour contracts and the number of jobs advertised for 18 - 25 year olds says it all. They just don't want to pay you the new "Living wage", I predict it's only going to get worse over the next few years.

And they get put as working to make the unemployed numbers look better.

The problem with agencies and zero contract they are no good for a family who need to know next week they have a job, it makes it better and safer to stay on the dole and claim benefits.

Going back many years when I was a younger person you could quit a job Friday find and start a new job Monday.

And having a job market so full isn't that an argument for limiting immigration?

 

[Warchild]

All the Agencies (recruitment centers) offer temp work, I've done 2 now but they always weed out the "older" people (+25) they take on doesn't matter whether you work your behind off or have the qualifications, they get what work they can out of you then pass you off to the next agency.

Well that is a horrible practise. My first job in Norway was a temp agency which eventually led to being taken on full time.

The culture, and mentality to the workforce is so much different. Here they are eager to keep you unless you are lazy.

And they get put as working to make the unemployed numbers look better.

The problem with agencies and zero contract they are no good for a family who need to know next week they have a job, it makes it better and safer to stay on the dole and claim benefits.

Going back many years when I was a younger person you could quit a job Friday find and start a new job Monday.

And having a job market so full isn't that an argument for limiting immigration?

Doesnt necessarily imply immigrants are the cause though. I was an immigrant, French born but lived most of my life in Wales. Didn't matter to others, people still saw me as an outsider taking jobs. Never mind I joined the Air Force for several years. Sadly I was glad to see the back of the UK, based on how I was treated, but I still fear for it since my brother and sister were born in Wales. Both soon to be unemployed.

I do find it strange though is that many i speak to imply their vote was note about immigrants, but as you begin to dissolve their reasoning, guess what pops up.. "i voted because Im sick of immigrants" go figure .

UK has to blanket the single market and gun for specialised deals. And they need to do it soon before scepticism tanks the GBP again.

1.00 GBP = 1.32336 USD
British Pound ↔ US Dollar
1 GBP = 1.32336 USD 1 USD = 0.755655 GBP

Its already falling hard and market closed for the day.

 

[Greenback]

Why employ someone full time and need to pay them holiday pay when you can just swap them out no downside to the employer and purer profit

 

[Wraith]

Well that is a horrible practise. My first job in Norway was a temp agency which eventually led to being taken on full time.

The culture, and mentality to the workforce is so much different. Here they are eager to keep you unless you are lazy.

It's a sad state of affairs I know, something I'm not used to.. when we left school we could just walk into a job and a your job was set for life. It's so frustrating right now.

 

[Greenback]

Well that is a horrible practise. My first job in Norway was a temp agency which eventually led to being taken on full time.

The culture, and mentality to the workforce is so much different. Here they are eager to keep you unless you are lazy.



Doesnt necessarily imply immigrants are the cause though. I was an immigrant, French born but lived most of my life in Wales. Didn't matter to others, people still saw me as an outsider taking jobs. Never mind I joined the Air Force for several years. Sadly I was glad to see the back of the UK, based on how I was treated, but I still fear for it since my brother and sister were born in Wales. Both soon to be unemployed.

I do find it strange though is that many i speak to imply their vote was note about immigrants, but as you begin to dissolve their reasoning, guess what pops up.. "i voted because Im sick of immigrants" go figure .

UK has to blanket the single market and gun for specialised deals. And they need to do it soon before scepticism tanks the GBP again.

1.00 GBP = 1.32336 USD
British Pound ↔ US Dollar
1 GBP = 1.32336 USD 1 USD = 0.755655 GBP

Its already falling hard and market closed for the day.

Went to Wales when I was a boy scout got chased by a gang of people so they don't make the English feel welcome either

I never said I'm sick of Immigrants, I was pointing out that if there are no jobs having an influx of more people would make no sense, would not a limit on the number until the job market is more favourable be better, just seems a logical step to me

Maybe I'll make my situation a little clearer, my Mrs is disabled and incapable of looking after our son I have bad eye sight that I had to go to a special needs school by the time our son is classed old enough to look after him self I will be to old to be classed as employable to an extent. So the current job market and how many immigrants are in the country mean very little to me.

I think crashing the Economy is part of camorons plan so he can say look told you, even though it will be his fault for dragging his feet

 

[Warchild]

Wasn't accusing you of anything Greenback. I think everyone has had their bad experiences. Some more than others.

 

[Tolemac]

Were they wearing woolly jumpers on a more serious note I had quite the opposite experience when I visited a friend that had moved from Essex to Pembroke Dock. I was welcomed with open arms "although I couldn't understand a word they were saying in the local shop"

 

[Greenback]

Wasn't accusing you of anything Greenback. I think everyone has had their bad experiences. Some more than others.

I know it wasn't a personal go at me I thought if you understand from my point of view that i'm only making an argument for limited immigration on a logical and not emotional point, I'm also not going to the view of none at all, there will always be some need for what we are lacking which by the time the Gender studies student's get to be Mp's we may need a Government made up of immigrants (have i just made and argument for staying in the Eu).

It's weird when Wraith talks about how hard it is to work now I had 2 jobs at 17 at 18 I worked as a cleaner in the morning, worked on the fields during the day and worked as a cleaner in the evening considering those types of jobs and that was back in 83 I was getting a good wage, field work was really good money if you're willing to put the effort in.
Even as a kid I remember my mum and aunties working during the fruit season taking us with her.

And maybe that is what's becoming the biggest problem in this country the factory and heavy industry that your average joe worked in and got a reasonable wage doing has slowly diminished or people are replaced with machines, the bakery I worked at replaced 3 people with 2 machines

Were they wearing woolly jumpers on a more serious note I had quite the opposite experience when I visited a friend that had moved from Essex to Pembroke Dock. I was welcomed with open arms "although I couldn't understand a word they were saying in the local shop"

no big boots that looked like they would hurt if they hit you, and there was 3 of us and about 30 of them

 

[shambles1980]

its hard not to bring migration in to a discussion about the EU as there are only 4 real points to the eu and migration is one of them.

Like i have said though i dont see migration changing much as many of the skilled workers including drs and nurses come here from the eu.

But being able to govern your own country and not having things imposed upon you is the whole reason we have a government.
And if we dont want those rights any more then i dont see why we need the eu to take them away when we could re-instate the monarchy and have a draconian system but it would cost a lot less..
infact if all we are worrying about is money i dont see why we dont do it any way. i cant imagine the monarchy spending any where near as much as parliament do on stuff that is of no benefit to the people.
but then we wouldnt have much of a say in what happens. but again i dont see how that is any different than being in the EU. and freedom of movement is not a big plus point for most in the uk. other than some ex pats, and cheap or working holidays / gap years. it does not much benefit the uk population.

the money they give back is in exchange for the industry or fishing areas they moved out of the uk to central European areas. which to me is like selling your cow for some magic beans, although the magic beans really were not magic in this version of the story.
also you have to pay them for the privilege for trading with them at a loss because of imposed tariffs, and a huge benefit of this is you are not allowed to impose your own tariffs on imports, so you end up in a situation where you cant have industry running at a profit due to the tariff system.

there are a lot of things that can help in the situation we have been in over the last 40 years, but leaving the eu is the 1st step towards being able to work with our own resources which we still have. and end up with a profit at the end.
because since we joined the eu.
industry has dropped at an alarming rate, manufacturing has dropped at an alarming rate. everything has dropped to a point where we are at a trading deficit year after year.
And where as being in the EU has not been the reason for it, it has been the biggest contributing factor.

 

[Mysterae]

I'll leave this here.

Can't find the original on youtube so fudbook will have to do!