Which of these builds would be (Theoretically) faster all-round ?

[Spacejunk]

I am trying to build a decent gaming PC with a budget of $2100aud. With the build components already narrowed down, I would just like to get a fair idea of performance and viablility between these two builds, primarily for gaming and general nerd tasks.


As you will notice, they are two different platforms, And although i am somewhat aware of the benefits of each platform, i haven't a clue how they would perform in comparison for real world applications. So far it seems a majority vote that Z77 is best for gaming and x79 (while good for gaming) isn't justified by the cost and could be considered overkill for a gaming PC.


However, i managed to put together two rather similar builds of each platform for almost the exact same price. Surprisingly the X79 build works out just a fraction cheaper. So with that in mind, is there any reason i shouldn't be considering the X79 build option ?


To my limited knowledge, some advantages to be had with X79 are better performance in encoding tasks and heavy number crunching, but there is also the prospect of compatibility with next gen CPU's such as Ivy bridge-E and who knows what else. but if the X79 can also achieve similar gaming performance at the same price-point, why does everyone say to go for the Z77 ?



1155 Build



ASUS GeForce GTX 670 DirectCU II
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193_1387&products_id=20212


Gigabyte G1-Sniper3 Motherboard
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=138_711_1183&products_id=20171

Intel Core i7 3770K
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=187_346_1184&products_id=20140


NZXT Switch 810 Case Matte Black
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=25_238&products_id=20708


OCZ Vertex 4 128GB SSD
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=210_902_903&products_id=19985


Corsair Vengeance Black CMZ16GX3M4X1866C9 16GB (4x4GB) DDR3
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=186_218_1125&products_id=19216


Corsair AX1200 Gold Power Supply
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15_354&products_id=15244




Total: $2115






2011 Build


ASRock X79 Extreme9 Motherboard
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=138_711_1299&products_id=19084


Intel Core i7 3820
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=187_346_1298&products_id=19588



Xigmatek Dark Knight Night Hawk CPU Cooler
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=207_23_845&products_id=20458



ASUS GeForce GTX 670 DirectCU II
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193_1387&products_id=20212


NZXT Switch 810 Case White
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=25_238&products_id=19605


OCZ Vertex 4 128GB SSD
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=210_902_903&products_id=19985


Corsair Vengeance Black CMZ16GX3M4X1866C9 16GB (4x4GB) DDR3
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=186_218_1125&products_id=19216


Corsair AX1200 Gold Power Supply
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15_354&products_id=15244


Total: $2110




Any and all help appreciated.

 

[Master&Puppet]

The reason why they are both the same price is because those CPUs are very similar - they are both 4 core with hyper threading based on a 'bridge' architecture. The fact that one is on x79 and the other is on z77 is pretty much irrelevant beyond that.

The 2700K and 3820 might as well have been the same chip because their performance was virtually identical. The 3770K has a slight revision to the architecture (Ivy Bridge) and is therefore slightly more powerful (~5%) but is also manufactured differently so it is more power efficient too. I'd definitely go for the z77/3770K because of this.

I would make some suggestions to your build:

1. From what you've said you'll use this computer for (gaming and general use) you won't need an i7 at all. I7s are only really justifiable price wise if you do regular photo/video editing or engineering design. For the same reason you also won't need more than 8GB RAM.

2. You'll need a better quality SSD than an OCZ (it will break!). I'd also suggest an HDD if you don't already have plans to use one. All your media and documents etc can go on the HDD as well stupid stuff like hibernation data which will clog up large amounts of your SSD for no reason!

3. You've gone a touch over the top with the PSU, you'll only need about 650w!

So take a look at this:

All you need to do from here is choose a CPU cooler if you want to over-clock (I'd get an h100 with decent third party fans like some Scythe Gentle typhoon 1500RPM).

 

[Spacejunk]

The reason why they are both the same price is because those CPUs are very similar - they are both 4 core with hyper threading based on a 'bridge' architecture. The fact that one is on x79 and the other is on z77 is pretty much irrelevant beyond that.

The 2700K and 3820 might as well have been the same chip because their performance was virtually identical. The 3770K has a slight revision to the architecture (Ivy Bridge) and is therefore slightly more powerful (~5%) but is also manufactured differently so it is more power efficient too. I'd definitely go for the z77/3770K because of this.

Any thoughts or considerations about the benefit of using the X79 platform on the basis, it will be compatible with the upcoming Ivy bridge-E CPU's, and to a lesser extent, other hardware components in the not-too-distant future ?

In foresight, my plan was to invest what money i have available now on hardware infrastructure that will still be viable for upgrades in a year or so. By that time, i should be able to afford a stellar CPU that won't necessitate a whole new platform.

I would make some suggestions to your build:

1. From what you've said you'll use this computer for (gaming and general use) you won't need an i7 at all. I7s are only really justifiable price wise if you do regular photo/video editing or engineering design. For the same reason you also won't need more than 8GB RAM.

The main reason i opted for a sturdy CPU is, i tend to play very CPU intensive games. Games that performance is solely dependent on massive unit instructions. I'm not sure if you are familiar with the Total war series, but these games easily bottom-out my core-2. With that in mind, i have to stress that this CPU upgrade must have performance at least 500% better in order to play these games to be fit for purpose.

On the memory side of things, i should note that i play a lot of older games. I'm sure you are already aware that many older games have un-fixed memory leaks and/or are large memory address unaware, meaning they will gobble up pretty much anything you throw at them. So the more memory i have results in more time playing before being forced to exit game, which comparative to the price difference, is a small price to pay.

2. You'll need a better quality SSD than an OCZ (it will break!). I'd also suggest an HDD if you don't already have plans to use one. All your media and documents etc can go on the HDD as well stupid stuff like hibernation data which will clog up large amounts of your SSD for no reason!

I'm glad you have brought this to my attention, as i was not aware of any technical flaws in the Vertex SSD range. Would i be stretching the friendship to ask you to expand on the problems with the Vertex models ?

The only reason i chose the Vertex, was the reported performance over most other brands, ironically, even Intel.

3. You've gone a touch over the top with the PSU, you'll only need about 650w!

Similar to the mentality behind considering the 2011 platform, the 1200W PSU was chosen, only in hindsight that the PSU is arguably the most Future-proof component i could buy. My thought process was, buying this now meant i have the headroom available to me if i so wish to venture into Multi-gpu configurations and other odds and ends.


Great advice you have given me, though i am still skeptical about choosing a soon-to-be dead platform over one that seems to have plenty of room to grow.

 

[tinytomlogan]

1200w PSU....? an AX650 would be fine LOL save your money.

Bin the OCZ SSD too.


Just to confirm everything said above!

 

[ChrisGlobe]

The only real difference between an i7 (3770K/3820) and an i5 (3570K) is Hyper Threading, which unless your software has been coded to use, is completely pointless and a waste of money.

I have a 2500K in my system, which is mainly used for Flight Sim X and X-Plane; two of the most CPU intensive games going (mainly due to lack of optimisation and the number of calculations needed!) It runs just as well as a friend who has a 2700K, no difference in minimum FPS, with the same clock speed (4.6GHz). The same will apply to Ivy Bridge CPUs.

Although you say you're looking for something future-proofed, how long do you want it to be future-proofed for? Haswell and LGA1150 will be out in the next couple of years (maybe sooner?), will LGA2011 exist much past that? That's one to wait and see...

OCZ SSDs are, like all OCZ products, terrible. Early on, OCZ had major issues with SSD firmware causing BSODs, data corruption and loss, etc. Although some of this has been solved, it's one of those things that's there in the back of your mind - if they managed to let a dodgy firmware update be shipped with thousands, if not more, SSDs, then what might happen in the future? Mushkin, Intel, Corsair or Crucial would be my suggestions, depending on the size and price you're looking at.

PSU is entirely up to you, but I would agree that 1200W is overkill now and in the future.

 

[Spacejunk]

1200w PSU....? an AX650 would be fine LOL save your money.

Bin the OCZ SSD too.


Just to confirm everything said above!

Hello Tom, I am a big fan of your reviews. It is a privilege to have your input on this.

Though i respect your recommendation, and i do apologize for not mentioning this sooner, i run a massive array of sata drives, and have plans to run even more. That and the possibility of running two or more 670/7970's + w/c and enough fans to blow out the sun, wouldn't it be wise to invest in something with a little more punch ?


Regarding the cost-factor and "saving money" I really have nothing else i would wish to spend money on more than this. PC gaming is my life, with not much outside that, so i am willing to spend every cent i can to ensure i get the best possible experience.

 

[MadMarc]

Hello Tom, I am a big fan of your reviews. It is a privilege to have your input on this.

Though i respect your recommendation, and i do apologize for not mentioning this sooner, i run a massive array of sata drives, and have plans to run even more. That and the possibility of running two or more 670/7970's + w/c and enough fans to blow out the sun, wouldn't it be wise to invest in something with a little more punch ?


Regarding the cost-factor and "saving money" I really have nothing else i would wish to spend money on more than this. PC gaming is my life, with not much outside that, so i am willing to spend every cent i can to ensure i get the best possible experience.

If you want to add a socond 670 soon, get a AX750, there's no point in add two more cards.
How many hdd do you have? From what I've read the pull no more than about 15-20w maybe slightly more on startup

 

[Master&Puppet]

Any thoughts or considerations about the benefit of using the X79 platform on the basis, it will be compatible with the upcoming Ivy bridge-E CPU's, and to a lesser extent, other hardware components in the not-too-distant future ?

Well that's the thing you see - there is no benefit to using x79 (or 1155 i7) because games are only just beginning to use 4 threads so the extra 4 hyper-threads aren't ever going to be used in the next year. For reference, if you don't know what it is, hyper-threading allows 1 core to run two tasks at the same time. This gives a little bit of extra performance when the core isn't working hard. Typically you will see 10-30% extra, total CPU performance.

In foresight, my plan was to invest what money i have available now on hardware infrastructure that will still be viable for upgrades in a year or so. By that time, i should be able to afford a stellar CPU that won't necessitate a whole new platform.

I can see the logic in this and you certainly aren't the only person to think this way but the issue is price. I would agree with you but the 3770k is 50% more expensive than the 3570K. Based on that website you linked:

3570K+MSI z77-g45 = $395
3770K by itself = $350.

So you'd only be throwing away $45 to get an entirely new platform when Ivy becomes too slow (which certainly won't be within the next year by the way).

The main reason i opted for a sturdy CPU is, i tend to play very CPU intensive games. Games that performance is solely dependent on massive unit instructions. I'm not sure if you are familiar with the Total war series, but these games easily bottom-out my core-2. With that in mind, i have to stress that this CPU upgrade must have performance at least 500% better in order to play these games to be fit for purpose.

I love the total war series, Shogun 2 is amazin! Funny how you mentioned this, I had a play around with some benchmarks on Shogun 2 the other week:
http://forum.overclock3d.net/showthread.php?t=44507

The total war series are some of the most demanding on the CPU but as you can see my i5 (which was barely over-clocked) was only really working hard on 1 thread and that was with 2 GPUs working flat out. So you are far better off saving the money from the i7 and getting a second GPU.

This reminds me, I really should update the benchmarks I've done now I've got my pc all set up properly.

On the memory side of things, i should note that i play a lot of older games. I'm sure you are already aware that many older games have un-fixed memory leaks and/or are large memory address unaware, meaning they will gobble up pretty much anything you throw at them. So the more memory i have results in more time playing before being forced to exit game, which comparative to the price difference, is a small price to pay.

99% of games are written for 32-bit which means that the system can literally only see 4gb of RAM so a game can't possibly use more than this (I've never seen more than 6gb of total system use but I've never tested it on old games with memory leaks).
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/lib...=vs.85).aspx#physical_memory_limits_windows_7

This is the reason why we suggest 8GB. It gives a full 4gb for the 32bit game to use and the other 4gb the 64bit OS can use (assuming you have a 64bit OS).

I'm glad you have brought this to my attention, as i was not aware of any technical flaws in the Vertex SSD range. Would i be stretching the friendship to ask you to expand on the problems with the Vertex models?
The only reason i chose the Vertex, was the reported performance over most other brands, ironically, even Intel.

I don't exactly know the issue - I just know that they have the highest returns rate. I used to suggest the Mushkin chronos but mine just broke (after just 4 months of use) so that's why I put in the Samsung. As for performance - well these things are so fast that 25mb/s here and there is barely noticeable. As long as you have a SATA 3 SSD you'll be fine.

Similar to the mentality behind considering the 2011 platform, the 1200W PSU was chosen, only in hindsight that the PSU is arguably the most Future-proof component i could buy. My thought process was, buying this now meant i have the headroom available to me if i so wish to venture into Multi-gpu configurations and other odds and ends.

I like that you went with such a good PSU with future-proofing in mind, we get far too many people who skimp on the PSU which is absolutely the worst thing to do. However, remember that as technology advances we are getting more performance for less power consumption.

If you decide to get an i5 with 2 670s (which would be my suggestion given your love of the total war series if you play on ultra sized unit settings) then even if you over-clock the whole lot you'll still only need an 850w so get that instead.

Great advice you have given me, though i am still skeptical about choosing a soon-to-be dead platform over one that seems to have plenty of room to grow.

Technology is always going out of date! I bought my 3570k on release in April and it will be super-seeded in about 1 year's time which makes me sad. But truthfully the performance of it at 4.8GHz with last me a couple of years.

IB-e will only be a tiny upgrade from SB-e, just like it was on the 1155 platform so the advice would be the same - go for sandy or ivy, don't get one and upgrade to the other. The biggest news will be haswell which is the next architecture. We expect it to be another large jump in performance just like Sandy was and it is likely that even the i5 haswell will blow away the i7 4 cores of this generation in which case you've spent you money today on something with threads you'll never use when you could buy what you actually need for nearly the same price as the i7 CPU alone and save that extra for a Haswell platform. Haswell will be on a new socket (1150) so you'd have to get a new mobo anyway. If Haswell-e is on 2011 then you will just be forever buying cpus which are more expensive than you need (and have more threads than you will ever use).

M&P

 

[ChrisGlobe]

Excellent summary there M&P

 

[Spacejunk]

Well that's the thing you see - there is no benefit to using x79 (or 1155 i7) because games are only just beginning to use 4 threads so the extra 4 hyper-threads aren't ever going to be used in the next year. For reference, if you don't know what it is, hyper-threading allows 1 core to run two tasks at the same time. This gives a little bit of extra performance when the core isn't working hard. Typically you will see 10-30% extra, total CPU performance.


I can see the logic in this and you certainly aren't the only person to think this way but the issue is price. I would agree with you but the 3770k is 50% more expensive than the 3570K. Based on that website you linked:

3570K+MSI z77-g45 = $395
3770K by itself = $350.

So you'd only be throwing away $45 to get an entirely new platform when Ivy becomes too slow (which certainly won't be within the next year by the way).


I love the total war series, Shogun 2 is amazin! Funny how you mentioned this, I had a play around with some benchmarks on Shogun 2 the other week:
http://forum.overclock3d.net/showthread.php?t=44507

The total war series are some of the most demanding on the CPU but as you can see my i5 (which was barely over-clocked) was only really working hard on 1 thread and that was with 2 GPUs working flat out. So you are far better off saving the money from the i7 and getting a second GPU.

This reminds me, I really should update the benchmarks I've done now I've got my pc all set up properly.


99% of games are written for 32-bit which means that the system can literally only see 4gb of RAM so a game can't possibly use more than this (I've never seen more than 6gb of total system use but I've never tested it on old games with memory leaks).
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa366778(v=vs.85).aspx#physical_memory_limits_windows_7

This is the reason why we suggest 8GB. It gives a full 4gb for the 32bit game to use and the other 4gb the 64bit OS can use (assuming you have a 64bit OS).


I don't exactly know the issue - I just know that they have the highest returns rate. I used to suggest the Mushkin chronos but mine just broke (after just 4 months of use) so that's why I put in the Samsung. As for performance - well these things are so fast that 25mb/s here and there is barely noticeable. As long as you have a SATA 3 SSD you'll be fine.


I like that you went with such a good PSU with future-proofing in mind, we get far too many people who skimp on the PSU which is absolutely the worst thing to do. However, remember that as technology advances we are getting more performance for less power consumption.

If you decide to get an i5 with 2 670s (which would be my suggestion given your love of the total war series if you play on ultra sized unit settings) then even if you over-clock the whole lot you'll still only need an 850w so get that instead.


Technology is always going out of date! I bought my 3570k on release in April and it will be super-seeded in about 1 year's time which makes me sad. But truthfully the performance of it at 4.8GHz with last me a couple of years.

IB-e will only be a tiny upgrade from SB-e, just like it was on the 1155 platform so the advice would be the same - go for sandy or ivy, don't get one and upgrade to the other. The biggest news will be haswell which is the next architecture. We expect it to be another large jump in performance just like Sandy was and it is likely that even the i5 haswell will blow away the i7 4 cores of this generation in which case you've spent you money today on something with threads you'll never use when you could buy what you actually need for nearly the same price as the i7 CPU alone and save that extra for a Haswell platform. Haswell will be on a new socket (1150) so you'd have to get a new mobo anyway. If Haswell-e is on 2011 then you will just be forever buying cpus which are more expensive than you need (and have more threads than you will ever use).

M&P

Wonderful!


Unfortunately, i have drank way too many beers to form a coherent sentence, but please let me finish this tomorrow. Without going into great detail, that was exactly the information i needed M&P.


Cheers!^_^

 

[Master&Puppet]

Enjoy the beer

 

[Rastalovich]

You said "gaming PC", so the simplest answer is the build that provides you with the best graphics card.

With 2 builds sporting the same thing... drop both and get i5/8G and a 680.

 

[seumasbeathan]

I would suggest a 670 as it offers roughly the same performance as a 680 but for a lot cheaper

 

[Rastalovich]

.. strange, I thought all the recent-ish cards were pretty close too

All in the minimum frames, but that's close also !

Real world, you're probably right.

 

[PapaSmurf6768]

I like my Vertex 4 a lot... :blush:
Don't hurt me!

 

[Master&Puppet]

I like my Vertex 4 a lot... :blush:
Don't hurt me!

You might have got lucky Hey, if it works, it works. Quite a few break after a couple of months though.

 

[Spacejunk]

Hello again,


Just dropped back, primarily to thank you guys for all the great advice, especially M&P for his understanding of the real problem i was facing, and for doing so with such an elegant, undeniably logic rich summation.


I'm not usually one to kiss-ass, but you sir definitely deserve the treatment. I never thought coming here would yield the unexpected reward of talking to such a humble and brilliant minded person. OC3D are very lucky to have you here and so am i.


Well, with the groveling out of the way, i would just like to add that there is now no doubt i will be going forward with the Z77 build, sticking pretty much to my base build options. The only major change being, the Cosmos II case over the NZXT, it's just a shame it does not come with a side-panel window.


Briefly coming back to my PSU woe's. Although you guys were correct in saying the AX-1200 would be overkill, given the information i provided. With that in mind, it's likely that only i can make a fair assessment of how much crap i plan to stuff in my case in the long-run. Just for a point of reference, i ended up running my specs through a PSU - wattage calculator to find i would need at least 1169 watts for my final system build.


Yeah, i like em big and nasty, much like my women.


Thank you again guys.

 

[seumasbeathan]

Just for a point of reference, i ended up running my specs through a PSU - wattage calculator to find i would need at least 1169 watts for my final system build.

Thank you again guys.

May I ask what the main power drawers were in the list?

 

[Master&Puppet]

Glad we could help, and I'm wondering what else you will be adding too!

 

[Spacejunk]

May I ask what the main power drawers were in the list?

I used the Thermaltake PSU Calculator. It does not give individual Watt ratings (apart from the CPU) just the combined power draw of components at a specified system load percentage. I used the recommended 90% load.

I can only guess that the bulk of the power draw was coming from the 7970 Crossfire. Those cards claim to have a 250watt power draw at max load. The CPU itself suggested 108watts (after O/C) at 4.6ghz.

Glad we could help, and I'm wondering what else you will be adding too!

Hey mate,


Nothing is concrete just as of yet, but i have a fair idea of what i will be adding to the system once my finances have recovered. As you already know, i have a hard drive fetish, so there are plans for a monstrous Raid-0 array, and further plans to go nuts with a water-cooling loop or two, front LCD display/Fan controller etc.


There will also be a bare minimum of 2-way SLI/Crossfire with a possibility of Tri or even Quad, not because it's all that functional, but because it will be epic! - Throw in a few cathodes, some Corsair-Air series fans and a side-panel cutout that reads "NOOB-STYLE" with green back-lighting and all will be right with the world.


I'm so excited!