Tube Thickness Logic

Ghost_X

New member
This is a bit of logic question.

​Okay imagine this setup

FSI20N1.png


As watercooling theory works water should pass through a block as fast as it can and go as slowly as it can through a radiator. This narrowing down of the tube would increase the pressure inside the block as the tubing would narrow down as the water would have to flow much faster for the same flow rate through the thinner tubes.

In theory you could go pump =(thick)=> block -(thin)-> rad =(thick)=> block -(thin)-> rad =(thick)=> res LOOP

This would also mean the water would slow down in your radiators which is what you want, because you want the water to remain as long as it can in the radiator.

What do you think, is there a reason no-one does this or has no-one thought of it before?
 
Flow doesnt change thru a loop,you can only flow as much as your narrowest restriction.

Presuming "flow" refers to volumetric flow rate (as in liters per second), then this is right. If I recall correctly this is basically what the continuity equation says, for the academically interested.

"Water should remain in radiator as long as possible to cool down": That's a misconception. Consider this:
  • Radiator one is completely serial. One continuous thin tube. This results in maximum flow velocity and extremely high restriction (such radiators are not used in practice because they would require a very strong pump which would dump much more heat into the loop which would require more radiators and so on and so forth...:huh:).
  • Radiator two is completely parallel. The water flow is split into many tubes and flows through the radiator slowly (velocity, not flow rate).
The time the water remains in radiator one is exactly the same as the time it remains in radiator two. As B Negative said, this is due to constant volumetric flow rate in the entire loop and has to do with the continuity equation. If you want the water to stay in the radiator for a longer time, the absolutely only thing you can do is reduce the flow rate in your entire loop.

Flow velocity however does of course not have to be constant (again, this is reflected in the continuity equation, among other things). A wider tube in a closed loop has the same volumetric flow rate as any other area of the loop (so long as it is connected in series and not in parallel of course), however it will have a lower flow velocity than a tighter tube in the same serial loop.

Whether or not water really should pass through a radiator slowly (as in: low velocity, not low flow rate) and through a block quickly (again, velocity, not flow rate) can be inferred from a few basics:
  • Heat transfer usually functions better in turbulent environments (explaining why would make this post even longer, but it's true).
  • Turbulence in a water cooling loop is mostly the result of a fluid flowing along a non-moving surface (the inner side of a tube or a block etc.) and the friction that is caused by that movement.
  • Higher flow velocities result in more turbulence (due to higher friction).
  • As mentioned, tighter channels result in higher flow velocities.
  • Higher surface areas improve heat transfer.
This is why most modern CPU blocks use either a pin matrix or very narrow channels (increase surface area, increase friction) preceded by a jet plate (increase flow velocity).

The same could however be said for a radiator: Turbulent flow along with higher flow velocity should increase heat transfer from the water to the tubes. And indeed some radiators have structures inside their tubes to increase turbulence (I think the Aquacomputer AMS belong to that group if I'm not mistaken).
The trouble is, creating turbulence costs energy. This is for example why airplanes, ships and cars are designed to minimize turbulence. Because that energy costs fuel. Or in our case: You need a stronger pump (a lot stronger). A stronger pump however dumps more heat into the loop, which starts the never-ending circle of escalation mentioned above.
This is why radiators are built at least with a partially parallel configuration in order lower flow velocity and therefore turbulence. This reduces flow resistance. Having the same turbulence as in a CPU block would be awesome for heat transfer, but cannot be sustained by any pump without dumping an excessive amount of additional heat into the system.

As everything else in engineering, it's a balancing act :cool:. There is no silver bullet.


PS: It's really late here, and it's a really long post. I hope there aren't any logical fallacies buried in here, but if there are, feel free to point them out (with supporting arguments of course :rolleyes:). I'll review the post again once I've gotten some sleep.
 
Yeah,laminar flow hurts performance.

You maybe correct about the AMS rads,they certainly are restrictive by nature,could be caused by Aquacomputers attempt to disrupt laminar flow caused by the round tubes used.
 
The longer the water stays in the radiator the more time it has to be cooled down. The faster the "cold" water is replaced in a waterblock then the better the cooling for the component will be.

Am I not right?
 
The longer the water stays in the radiator the more time it has to be cooled down. The faster the "cold" water is replaced in a waterblock then the better the cooling for the component will be.

Am I not right?

I apologize for my very long-winded posts but as you can easily see this is a rather complex subject.

Water moving twice as fast in your loop goes through the radiator twice as often, so the total time it spends in the radiator is the same. I think ;).

The thing that has to happen for the water to cool down is a transfer of its heat content from the water to the tubes to the fins to the air. This heat content is primarily dependent on how much water you have and how hot it is.

The problem is efficiency.
Consider a loop consisting exclusively of a radiator. Then fill that radiator with hot water. The water in the radiator can stay there for an infinitely long amount of time (which is what you would like to do if we take it to the extreme) and cool down.

Now take the same amount of hot water at the same temperature and move it through the radiator very quickly (we'll just imagine our radiator is also an ideal pump which has zero heat output :)). In this case, the water will cool down much more quickly even though it is the same radiator which has to dissipate the same amount of heat content.

The reason is efficiency. The water in the first radiator (and this also goes for a radiator with low volumetric flow rate) cools down in the following fashion: The outer layer of the water which is in contact with the tube (the laminar flow B Negative mentioned) cools down quickly and then actually acts as an insulator between the inner water that has not yet cooled down and the tubes. So cooling down the water that is a bit more distant from the radiator tubes is extremely inefficient compared to cooling down the water that is in direct contact with the inner tube wall.
This is why you want turbulence. Turbulence mixes these two water layers and makes sure the water is cooled down much more efficiently.
And turbulence is improved by high flow velocities .

Now, this all sounds nice and well in theory, but of course in practice there are a few things to consider, namely that relationships between things are rarely linear (meaning "funny things can happen under certain circumstances").

Take this thread for example. Martin found that for very low speed fans lower flow rates seemed to be better than higher ones. It turned out not to be as severe as he'd thought and related to testing methodology, but the thread is worth reading. The post I've linked is his first explanation for the discrepancies.

By the way: Martin's Liquid Lab and SkinneeLabs are excellent resources for the water cooling enthusiast. The most thorough water cooling reviews I have found so far.

If you really want to find out in detail why you've been had by a misconception about this, pop open a thermodynamics book and a fluid dynamics book (or Wikipedia, its thermo and fluid stuff is actually pretty decent for the most part) and solve some equations. Although you might be busy for a few weeks with that :rolleyes:

Yeah,laminar flow hurts performance.

You maybe correct about the AMS rads,they certainly are restrictive by nature,could be caused by Aquacomputers attempt to disrupt laminar flow caused by the round tubes used.

I think I once saw a cross-cut of their tubing arrangement, but it's been a while. But yeah, I agree with this.
 
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Thanks for your in-depth replies! They were a great read and very informative. I did not take into consideration that if the water flows more slowly it would take it longer to return to the radiator.

Also forgot the thing about the surface area of the water in contact with the cooler surface of the rad because of course as things get bigger they have a smaller surface area to volume proportion.

Thanks again!
 
Happy to help, and glad my work is of some use to someone :)
Once upon a time I had pretty much the same troubles. It took me quite a while to figure this stuff out myself.
 
Happy to help, and glad my work is of some use to someone :)
Once upon a time I had pretty much the same troubles. It took me quite a while to figure this stuff out myself.
I appreciate the work you have done in this thread,you obviously have knowledge in this field. Martin is the goto man for this type of testing,a sound recommendation
 
I appreciate the work you have done in this thread,you obviously have knowledge in this field. Martin is the goto man for this type of testing,a sound recommendation

Thanks for the kind words. Even though I've only recently joined the oc3d forums I have indeed been watercooling for about 10 years (started with an AC Cuplex classic :)).
Besides that I've been lucky enough to enjoy some excellent fluid dynamics and thermodynamics lectures from a great university (ETH in Zurich). Combining that theoretical background with Martin's and Skinnee's experimental data (haven't had time to conduct my own thorough experiments) and seeing how things match up (or if they don't, finding out why) has been quite an insightful and fun experience :).

This thread makes me think that it might be a good idea to have a sticky for clearing up some of the most frequently encountered misconceptions and questions and dispelling half-truths about watercooling (loop order is another one that springs to mind, but I'm sure there are more). Not necessarily a beginners guide which already exists and is more focused on how to actually build a loop, but something dedicated to this kind of thing. With all the knowledge that's circulating in this forum I'm sure we could do something worthwhile.

Hm, I might just have spotted a new project for my todo list.
 
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Speaking of loop order, I still find it hard to believe that the temp in a loop fluctuates so little. I got myself two inline thermometers for my next loop to see how true this is. Also wanted to test the theory that the speed d5 does not really matter that much with those in-line sensors.

Totally agree with the need for an advanced guide though.
 
Thanks for the kind words. Even though I've only recently joined the oc3d forums I have indeed been watercooling for about 10 years (started with an AC Cuplex classic :)).
Besides that I've been lucky enough to enjoy some excellent fluid dynamics and thermodynamics lectures from a great university (ETH in Zurich). Combining that theoretical background with Martin's and Skinnee's experimental data (haven't had time to conduct my own thorough experiments) and seeing how things match up (or if they don't, finding out why) has been quite an insightful and fun experience :).

This thread makes me think that it might be a good idea to have a sticky for clearing up some of the most frequently encountered misconceptions and questions and dispelling half-truths about watercooling (loop order is another one that springs to mind, but I'm sure there are more). Not necessarily a beginners guide which already exists and is more focused on how to actually build a loop, but something dedicated to this kind of thing. With all the knowledge that's circulating in this forum I'm sure we could do something worthwhile.

Hm, I might just have spotted a new project for my todo list.

Funnily enough,im getting a test bench together for this very reason,Tom is very keen for this too,He wants a couple of WC 'guru's' onsite.

Dont get me started on loop order,the amount of people i see putting rads between blocks and whatnot.....amazing
 
I got myself two inline thermometers for my next loop to see how true this is.

Great to hear! No matter how neat the theory lines up, it's always better to have experimental data.
Speaking of which, two examples:
If you have a look at the first numbers table on this page and on this page, you will see that temperature difference from a radiator's inlet to its outlet (at least in those cases) was of the order of 1 degree, if I have interpreted the data correctly.

Edit, because new post :):

Funnily enough,im getting a test bench together for this very reason,Tom is very keen for this too,He wants a couple of WC 'guru's' onsite.

Dont get me started on loop order,the amount of people i see putting rads between blocks and whatnot.....amazing

Great to hear. I shall be awaiting results. And yeah, that whole "rads between blocks" story really is... astonishing. :rolleyes:
 
Thanks Mysterae. It's nice to know one's work is appreciated.
Plus it feels kinda good to put my education to good use in one of my hobbies :).
 
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