3 strikes and your Out for the french.

[mayhem]

The world is turning into big brother rather quickly and to top off this the French government in there wisdom are coming down hard and fast on there users who illegally down load any thing from the internet.

The 3 strike system that is now LAW in the France is that if after you have been warned 3 times about downloading illegal material from bit torrent you can find your self in court and be either fined or banned from the internet.

Now this ruling may sound crazy but 3 strikes is probably waning enough how ever they reckon that after 3 months there will be approx 1 million ip address handed over a month for the ISP to check and pass on the details of there users. .... 1 Million HOLY COW that is some workload and guess who gonna end up paying for some joky to sit at there computer pulling of these records it will be the users. (bet no ones thought of that yet).

Will this law appear over here ... maybe and if it does how many people will be hammered. Apparently the UK is one of the largest in the world at pirating (which is not surprising since we pay way over the odds for any thing we buy).

Here is a direct link to this news post -> http://torrentfreak.com/france-starts-reporting-millions-of-file-sharers-100921/

What are you thoughts?.

I mean the simple user who has no knowledge of what a IP address is gonna get hammered and the "pros" who do know how to mask there IP address are not even going to flinch at this ruleing.

All so what if its your 12 year old kid knocking down some music track for his over priced ipod that has 130 gig hard drive and would cost more than the ipod to fill it with music legally .... (think about it). In the UK any kid under the age of 13, the parent is responsible for there action. Your self could find your self sitting (or standing) in front of a judge trying explain why you did not know what was happing in your own home and that your kid has just downloaded god knows how many tracks or films for that matter ..... and because you just been to court you now have a criminal record for just being a parent ... (this is a real serious problem)

there is such much right about this is idea yet there is all so, so much wrong and its implementation to me sounds Nuts to say the least. If it came here all hell would brake lose and what of our pour French fellow companions.

your thoughts count !

 

[Diablo]

I can't see this working over here. I mean how does the government square spending billions on combating piracy in a time of austerity? There are some pretty good proxies and VPN clients out there which would make life very difficult to prove anything, but the thing with kids is a bit more worrying. If I were a parent and my kid had been downloading 16K songs, then there would be a huge fine or a criminal record. I reckon that there will be some sort of get out clause for parents who can show they took reasonable efforts to prevent this kind of thing.

Perhaps if you are really worried about what the kids are doing, you (that being a wide ranging you, not mayhem) should install some sort of filter?

But yeah, its a stupid policy, which will give people who are hardly criminals, criminal records and ruin their lives. It all smacks of jumping on the band wagon without working through the details.

 

[JN]

I'm not sure I can go along with the whole 'music is too expensive' argument. I mean, if you bought an iPod it's clear you are intending on listening music on it. So how about factoring in the cost of buying the songs before you buy the device. It's a bit like buying a car and then nicking petrol from the local garage because it is 'too expensive'.

Listening to music is not a god given right, you don't need it to survive, and hey if you want free music go listen to the radio. Simple as.

Theft is theft, regardless of whether the item being stolen is 'worth' the sale price or not.

- Downloaders should get punished by being made to pay for what they have stolen or loosing their right to be connected to the internet.

- Sharers should receive even harsher punishment for being the source of the stolen goods.

And if parents are afraid of what their child is doing online, block everything but port 80 HTTP traffic and keep track fo the sites that your children visit.

 

[hmmblah]

I'm not sure I can go along with the whole 'music is too expensive' argument. I mean, if you bought an iPod it's clear you are intending on listening music on it. So how about factoring in the cost of buying the songs before you buy the device. It's a bit like buying a car and then nicking petrol from the local garage because it is 'too expensive'.

Listening to music is not a god given right, you don't need it to survive, and hey if you want free music go listen to the radio. Simple as.

Theft is theft, regardless of whether the item being stolen is 'worth' the sale price or not.

- Downloaders should get punished by being made to pay for what they have stolen or loosing their right to be connected to the internet.

- Sharers should receive even harsher punishment for being the source of the stolen goods.

And if parents are afraid of what their child is doing online, block everything but port 80 HTTP traffic and keep track fo the sites that your children visit.

Totally agree! Downloaders of illegal software justify their actions in their minds because the software is too expensive and they wouldn't be buying it anyway. I have a friend who pirates everything; music, books, games, applications etc. I don't think he has bought any of those in the last 7 or 8 years.

I don't agree with the government wasting time to try to catch pirates. The ISPs simply can't afford to do this kind of monitoring while still selling cheap bandwidth. Instead of the customers paying for more services, they are paying for the monitoring.

I don't know the solution to this, but spending millions seems kind of a waste to me when they are much more pressing matters to spend money on.

 

[JN]

I don't know the solution to this, but spending millions seems kind of a waste to me when they are much more pressing matters to spend money on.

It could be placed on the heads of the software developers who design to sharing programs?

Going back to the car analogy again. If you buy a 2nd hand car from a dealership they will have checked that it is not stolen. After all they wouldn't want to end up in court for selling stolen goods...

Software developers shouldn't be allowed to hid behind the "oh but we designed this software so that people could share non-copyright music etc". Either ensure that is ALL that's being shared, or GTFO of business.

 

[alienware]

It is all an excuse. Music is cheaper now than ever, with a CD costing around £7. When I was a kid a CD cost over twice that (£16 or so when CD was new).

Games on the PC cost bugger all... So who is to blame? the ISPs.

Basically they are selling packages that can only be used for leeching. They're uber fast connections (50mb in some cases) and are only there to be abused. However, it's all too much f*****g fun for the ISPs because they are charging £50 a month for what equates to nothing more than air. If their connections were slower and people had to wait, say, a week to download a PC game they would likely buy it. I get mine on release for about £17. So there's absolutely no point in stealing them unless I am wary of how it will run on my PC and want to evaluate how it runs.

Take Mafia 2 for example. Downloaded the demo, stuttery as chuff. Wasn't about to risk £25 so I pinched it. No better than the demo. So I have now stopped playing it and will buy it when they either sort it out or it goes budget. Bad coding FTL.

And that, to me, is perfectly acceptable. There are WAY too many hardware variables to put my trust in a game company and hand over my cash. However, I could sit here and prove that I have paid cash for any game I have ever played. Take Fallout 3. Again pinched it because of the horror stories I read (and believe me these were horrific tales of how it wouldn't even work). Downloaded, went to launch, CTD.What a waste of £35 that would have been !

However. Since then I have bought *both* the collector's eds. Simply because it was worth it. I have the full lunchbox set AND the Brotherhood of steel one.

But yes, going back to it? it's down to the ISP. I mean honestly, what the f**k would you need a 50mb £50 a month line for for browsing the web? Would it get you your emails any faster? would it heck.

Problem is people add that £50 into their budget, as they will. If they were running a £20 a month line? they could buy a game every month. But they don't want to do that. They want EVERY game for that £50, making games feel cheaper than they are. When PC games were £45+? they had an argument. However, they're not. I paid £17.99 on coolshop for Modern warfare 2 on release day. Battlefield BC2? £16 cos I got a £1 voucher. And so on.

When everything is free for so long and you stuff your fat greedy face full of it 10p would seem like a lot. But I don't blame them, I blame the ISPs for making it all to chuffing easy.

 

[hmmblah]

It could be placed on the heads of the software developers who design to sharing programs?

Going back to the car analogy again. If you buy a 2nd hand car from a dealership they will have checked that it is not stolen. After all they wouldn't want to end up in court for selling stolen goods...

Software developers shouldn't be allowed to hid behind the "oh but we designed this software so that people could share non-copyright music etc". Either ensure that is ALL that's being shared, or GTFO of business.

A lot of the programs are designed where laws are different. In one country you might be doing something illegal while in another country the same thing is perfectly legal. Bit Torrent itself is a wonderful tool. I've downloaded loads of Linux ISOs and other legal software with it. Software developers really can't be held accountable for what people do illegally with their software unless they were promoting and encouraging the illegal activity. There are many other means to download illegal software as well..newsgroups and even simple ftp. Should all ftp program creators be held accountable for what their users download?

It is all an excuse. Music is cheaper now than ever, with a CD costing around £7. When I was a kid a CD cost over twice that (£16 or so when CD was new).

Games on the PC cost bugger all... So who is to blame? the ISPs.

Basically they are selling packages that can only be used for leeching. They're uber fast connections (50mb in some cases) and are only there to be abused. However, it's all too much f*****g fun for the ISPs because they are charging £50 a month for what equates to nothing more than air. If their connections were slower and people had to wait, say, a week to download a PC game they would likely buy it. I get mine on release for about £17. So there's absolutely no point in stealing them unless I am wary of how it will run on my PC and want to evaluate how it runs.

Take Mafia 2 for example. Downloaded the demo, stuttery as chuff. Wasn't about to risk £25 so I pinched it. No better than the demo. So I have now stopped playing it and will buy it when they either sort it out or it goes budget. Bad coding FTL.

And that, to me, is perfectly acceptable. There are WAY too many hardware variables to put my trust in a game company and hand over my cash. However, I could sit here and prove that I have paid cash for any game I have ever played. Take Fallout 3. Again pinched it because of the horror stories I read (and believe me these were horrific tales of how it wouldn't even work). Downloaded, went to launch, CTD.What a waste of £35 that would have been !

However. Since then I have bought *both* the collector's eds. Simply because it was worth it. I have the full lunchbox set AND the Brotherhood of steel one.

But yes, going back to it? it's down to the ISP. I mean honestly, what the f**k would you need a 50mb £50 a month line for for browsing the web? Would it get you your emails any faster? would it heck.

Problem is people add that £50 into their budget, as they will. If they were running a £20 a month line? they could buy a game every month. But they don't want to do that. They want EVERY game for that £50, making games feel cheaper than they are. When PC games were £45+? they had an argument. However, they're not. I paid £17.99 on coolshop for Modern warfare 2 on release day. Battlefield BC2? £16 cos I got a £1 voucher. And so on.

When everything is free for so long and you stuff your fat greedy face full of it 10p would seem like a lot. But I don't blame them, I blame the ISPs for making it all to chuffing easy.

I still don't blame it on the ISPs. They sell big pipes because people want big pipes. Napster started when the majority of people were on dial up Internet. Downloading a song took 25 minutes. That didn't stop anyone from downloading like crazy and spurring the whole music piracy issue. Hell, you could say it's Apples fault for developing an MP3 player without requiring all songs to use some form of DRM to ensure they were legit.

We can't hold sharing software developers accountable. We can't hold ISPs accountable. It's not the governments job to make sure the RIAA and MPAA are happy. If I steal something from a convenience store it's not the store's fault that everything wasn't under lock and key. It's my fault. The only people that need to be held accountable are the downloaders and those who distribute the illegal files.

 

[alienware]

When we had dialup we *all* had dialup. When we had DSL and MSDN or whatever it was called we all had it.

When I had dialup I never downloaded a game. I think IIRC I got the Quake 3 demo for Mac but it was 60mb.

You say that they sell big pipes because people want them. Yup, that's very true. What do they want them for? what do the ISPs think they are going to be used for?

So, if the govt are so pissed off with it then stopping it, or, slowing it to a crawl would be to enforce a speed cap on the ISPs.

Every one I know with a 50mb line leeches all day, every day. They fill up those cheap 1tb Samsungs like you would never believe and never watch, play or listen to any of it. Could they do that with a 6mb line? to a degree yes. But, every 6mb line now has a fair usage policy *or* bandwidth limit on it. The reason that they did that was to stop people leeching because it was chuffing up the service for every one else. And it's worked ! Ever since BT lines and O2 started whacking out threatening letters (and a 3 strike rule, BTW, there was a post here from an O2 user a week or so ago) people have calmed down.

The internet in the past was a lawless place where you were pretty much faceless within reason and could do whatever you wanted to. Steal, slag people off, start up arguments. Loads of things we couldn't do in the real world. It's a terrible habit to get into, but once you do (as I said) people then expect it to remain like that.

The only people that can actually change that and actually get people to comply are the ISPs. But all the time they are lining their pockets feeding leeches it's not going to change. And why? because if they did start telling people off on a 50mb line they would either go elsewhere or simply stop paying the whacking great monthly fee to have it. Because put simply, as I said, that is ALL you would need a line like that for.

Tell me something. When some one gets addicted to drugs who do you blame? Them? or the drug dealer selling it to them? you see, I would blame both, but seeing as drug dealers are usually the scum of the earth knowing full well what those drugs do then I would lay more blame on them. Take the problem back to the root and start from there. Yes, people are greedy, expectant pigs these days. But, we only become like that when given the option to. If the net was to go 512mb for all tomorrow how many would download 14gb game after 14gb game?

 

[JN]

A lot of the programs are designed where laws are different. In one country you might be doing something illegal while in another country the same thing is perfectly legal. Bit Torrent itself is a wonderful tool. I've downloaded loads of Linux ISOs and other legal software with it. Software developers really can't be held accountable for what people do illegally with their software unless they were promoting and encouraging the illegal activity. There are many other means to download illegal software as well..newsgroups and even simple ftp. Should all ftp program creators be held accountable for what their users download?

Hmm I see your point, but there's a lot of difference between the various methods of accessing illegal software, all of which can be canned imo.

FTP - nobody uses it anymore because its a single point of failure. If the guy hosting the warez FTP switches his PC off, down goes all the illegal files. Its also p155 easy to track who's hosting and shut them down. Not to mention the slowness of it all once 10 people start sapping some kids ADSL upload.

Newsgroups - 90% of the time hosted by ISP's themselves! In order to host a newsgroup you need a shiat load of bandwidth. Find who's responsible for hosting the files, shut them down. If they can't keep tabs on whats being uploaded, they shouldn't be hosting it. Simple as.

Torrents/P2P - Force software developers to work with those who are having their copyrighted work stolen. Include blocking for file checksums, filenames..etc. After all, if you cant search for the name of a new song by its name, how are you going to find it?

 

[hmmblah]

When we had dialup we *all* had dialup. When we had DSL and MSDN or whatever it was called we all had it.

When I had dialup I never downloaded a game. I think IIRC I got the Quake 3 demo for Mac but it was 60mb.

You say that they sell big pipes because people want them. Yup, that's very true. What do they want them for? what do the ISPs think they are going to be used for?

So, if the govt are so pissed off with it then stopping it, or, slowing it to a crawl would be to enforce a speed cap on the ISPs.

Every one I know with a 50mb line leeches all day, every day. They fill up those cheap 1tb Samsungs like you would never believe and never watch, play or listen to any of it. Could they do that with a 6mb line? to a degree yes. But, every 6mb line now has a fair usage policy *or* bandwidth limit on it. The reason that they did that was to stop people leeching because it was chuffing up the service for every one else. And it's worked ! Ever since BT lines and O2 started whacking out threatening letters (and a 3 strike rule, BTW, there was a post here from an O2 user a week or so ago) people have calmed down.

The internet in the past was a lawless place where you were pretty much faceless within reason and could do whatever you wanted to. Steal, slag people off, start up arguments. Loads of things we couldn't do in the real world. It's a terrible habit to get into, but once you do (as I said) people then expect it to remain like that.

The only people that can actually change that and actually get people to comply are the ISPs. But all the time they are lining their pockets feeding leeches it's not going to change. And why? because if they did start telling people off on a 50mb line they would either go elsewhere or simply stop paying the whacking great monthly fee to have it. Because put simply, as I said, that is ALL you would need a line like that for.

Tell me something. When some one gets addicted to drugs who do you blame? Them? or the drug dealer selling it to them? you see, I would blame both, but seeing as drug dealers are usually the scum of the earth knowing full well what those drugs do then I would lay more blame on them. Take the problem back to the root and start from there. Yes, people are greedy, expectant pigs these days. But, we only become like that when given the option to. If the net was to go 512mb for all tomorrow how many would download 14gb game after 14gb game?

We're never going to agree. We're from different worlds. I like my freedom to do with as I choose. I don't want someone forcing something on me because of what someone else did.

What about the people who do need big pipes. High quality VOIP, HD video conferencing, HD streaming movies services such as Netflix, Remote Offices through VPNs...the list goes on and on. I shouldn't have a big pipe because some cheap ass wants to get his games for free?

The reason ISPs starting throttling and making bandwidth caps is due to costs to operate. ISPs are notorious for overselling their bandwidth. Let's say they have 10 customers and all are on a 50Mbit pipe. Problem is the ISP only has a 100Mbit pipe themselves. The ISP expects to not have everyone on at the same time. This way they can oversell and improve their bottom line. If all 10 people are on at the same time they have to share that 100Mbit line, no way they will all get the 50Mbit they pay for.

The ISPs should be force to upgrade their equipment or not sell they way the do. Instead they blame it on filesharers to take the blame off themselves. Software pirates are a minority. The majority of Internet users don't download gigs of games and other media.

Your drug analogy is flawed. The drug dealer would be the file sharer, the drug user would be the downloader. The ISP would more likely be the courier in between who delivers a sealed package from the drug dealer to the user.

Hmm I see your point, but there's a lot of difference between the various methods of accessing illegal software, all of which can be canned imo.

FTP - nobody uses it anymore because its a single point of failure. If the guy hosting the warez FTP switches his PC off, down goes all the illegal files. Its also p155 easy to track who's hosting and shut them down. Not to mention the slowness of it all once 10 people start sapping some kids ADSL upload.

Newsgroups - 90% of the time hosted by ISP's themselves! In order to host a newsgroup you need a shiat load of bandwidth. Find who's responsible for hosting the files, shut them down. If they can't keep tabs on whats being uploaded, they shouldn't be hosting it. Simple as.

Torrents/P2P - Force software developers to work with those who are having their copyrighted work stolen. Include blocking for file checksums, filenames..etc. After all, if you cant search for the name of a new song by its name, how are you going to find it?

The protocol/method doesn't matter. If I kill someone does it matter if I used a gun, a hand grenade, a pencil, or my bare hands?

Your last comment about torrents/P2P is next to impossible to do. You would almost need a central body set up that stores the md5's, filenames etc, and each file sharing program would have to subscribe to it to get the list. I could see that working, but once again different laws in different countries would come into play. Also, users could just disable the checks or change the checksums and filenames so they would circumvent the list.

 

[mayhem]

p2p has many uses and look at the bbc !!!! they are p2p.

there are legit reasons for p2p and all so illegitimate reasons.

News groups. well they did start off as news groups. Yeh since binary groups have gone though the roof and hosts such as gigabit and various other sites now have a retention on alt.biners.whatever of over 360 days meaning 1 years worth of download on certain groups its all gone a little barney and to top it off its anonymous (unless though your own isp).

then you have FXP / FTP do you really think they quiet down.they are going strong as ever and are still the main release groups source of moving media about. Just the normal average joe wouldn't know his ass from his elbow and dont know what a FTP is. (thank god)

Let me give you a 2 tone argument and we will take me for a example.

I own lots of retro gear and i really do mean lots. I have lots of games and all so i own lots of arcade boards. Now lets say one of my arcade boards brakes (as it did the other week) and i need a new rom. With in seconds i can hit a P2P group and download that rom and burn it to a chip and the game is now working again. Excellent since they dont make the game any more i can fix my problem. How ever i can do this all so for any arcade game going even if i dont own it. So i have downloaded "ALL" the roms for all arcade games, all 75 gigs worth of them and they are stored on my hard drives. I dont play them but i do keep them in case i will ever need them. because eventually there is going to be a time when they are going to be like rocking horse poo to get hold off.

So am i braking the law in some respects yes, do i have a legitimate reason for keeping them safe for future ! well i think so as i do acquire quite a few broken games bought off ebay at a fraction of there cost and i fix them and keep them with all these roms i have.

How ever you have the other spectrum and its a nice bit of software called Mame !! now mame is a library of software roms that has the Abilty to play the "roms" now this is excellent for some one like me to check the game i have is working how it should do. There is more to mame than many people know about such as fault finding and gfx glitches ect ect. How ever because it can play these roms every bugger downloads it and plays it on there pc. "OM MY GOD" out cry mame is allowing people to play illegal arcade games. well yes it dos but it was never made for that reason .... So do you blame the mame developers or do u blame the mass public for taking the micky....

Well mame devs have some thing up there sleeve for the game developers. They say if you contact them and ask for a game to be removed on the next release they will remove it. Which is excellent.. I can go on for ever but i think you see my point.

Pirating will never stop its been going on since the dawn of time in one form or another. Crap even the bible was pirated much to the annoyance of its makers. (true fact)

 

[mrapoc]

The only way I see it being fixed is to make it harder to find the illegal content in the first place. Torrent sites with anything but legal stuff should be held accountable - Mininova has gone 100% legit. ThePirateBay had a close call, yet still stays open doing what they do best.

As for limewire etc. - these are easier than ever to acquire, hell knows how its not been closed down the amount of easily accessible songs, porn, illegal porn and viruses on there is unbelievable.

 

[zak4994]

I think I read somewhere that illegal sharing of files such as CDs and games helps the sales of said items. I recently torrented the new Linkin Park Album to see if I was going to invest in it and I did.

And what ever happened to the world of being happy that your stuff is out there and being enjoyed by people?

Stupid greed.

 

[alienware]

We're never going to agree. We're from different worlds. I like my freedom to do with as I choose. I don't want someone forcing something on me because of what someone else did.

Sounds like we are indeed from different worlds. You seem to want to live in one where you can say that freedom means you can do whatever you like with no reprisal. Personally speaking? it doesn't matter. Time will unfold and you can see what happens.

Speeding is illegal.But only because other people did it. If the law changes you won't have much choice. So there's little point in arguing over it. I do understand your 'few bad apples' argument but sadly that won't really count for much.

What about the people who do need big pipes. High quality VOIP, HD video conferencing, HD streaming movies services such as Netflix, Remote Offices through VPNs...the list goes on and on. I shouldn't have a big pipe because some cheap ass wants to get his games for free?

The people who want those services can have it. On a business package. Where, if you got caught leeching crap they would no doubt end your contract. I have ran most of what you say on a 10mb cable line and it was more than enough. Infact, I used Lingo and Vonage in the USA for about six years all told and never ever had a problem with it. As I said, you can argue over the cheap ass all you like. "The few will ruin it for the many". That's what always happens.

The reason ISPs starting throttling and making bandwidth caps is due to costs to operate. ISPs are notorious for overselling their bandwidth. Let's say they have 10 customers and all are on a 50Mbit pipe. Problem is the ISP only has a 100Mbit pipe themselves. The ISP expects to not have everyone on at the same time. This way they can oversell and improve their bottom line. If all 10 people are on at the same time they have to share that 100Mbit line, no way they will all get the 50Mbit they pay for.

They want to charge more for it because they can't face the real problems. The real problems are their crappy lines cannot cope with it. They sold the packages, so any problems they are having need investment back in order to sort out the problems. Not start juggling it around and trying to 'fool the bags' as Lee Evans put it. Charging more for less is their idea of keeping the infrastructure running, and that's because they are pulling the teets of the cash cow. My lines are forty years old. Don't you think BT have made enough money in forty years to replace them?

Course they haven't, they'll just keep charging more for less and pulling on those teets for as long as possible.

The ISPs should be force to upgrade their equipment or not sell they way the do. Instead they blame it on filesharers to take the blame off themselves. Software pirates are a minority. The majority of Internet users don't download gigs of games and other media.

Absolutely. Just as I said above, before I had even read that bit there. They want to charge loads of money for services they know that they shouldn't really be providing. As for the majority? see also minority and majority. The few will spoil it for the many and all that.

Your drug analogy is flawed. The drug dealer would be the file sharer, the drug user would be the downloader. The ISP would more likely be the courier in between who delivers a sealed package from the drug dealer to the user.

A file sharer does nothing but put the file there to be downloaded. Without the bandwidth and speed to download it they simply couldn't download it.

There is a big difference between wanting and needing a fast connection, btw. If you need it? then you can have it. Selling 50mb connections to home users *IMO* makes no sense at all. Every one I know with a 50mb connection (and believe me there are a good few) all have it for no other reason that to leech.

 

[hmmblah]

Sounds like we are indeed from different worlds. You seem to want to live in one where you can say that freedom means you can do whatever you like with no reprisal. Personally speaking? it doesn't matter. Time will unfold and you can see what happens.

Speeding is illegal.But only because other people did it. If the law changes you won't have much choice. So there's little point in arguing over it. I do understand your 'few bad apples' argument but sadly that won't really count for much.

So you want the government and ISPs to monitor everything you do? I have nothing to hide, but that's a complete waste of time and money. Does your mailman read all your mail that passes through the post?

Also, I don't believe freedom means I can do whatever I like, but I shouldn't be subjected to unfair searches and seizures. The whole guilty until proven innocent thing is a pile of shit.

The people who want those services can have it. On a business package. Where, if you got caught leeching crap they would no doubt end your contract. I have ran most of what you say on a 10mb cable line and it was more than enough. Infact, I used Lingo and Vonage in the USA for about six years all told and never ever had a problem with it. As I said, you can argue over the cheap ass all you like. "The few will ruin it for the many". That's what always happens.

Business packages usually cost about double what the residential packages do for absolutely no gain. They tack on the name and an additional cost at the same time. I also said HD steams and high quality VOIP, totally different from something low quality like Vonage. It's more business/education oriented but argument still holds.

They want to charge more for it because they can't face the real problems. The real problems are their crappy lines cannot cope with it. They sold the packages, so any problems they are having need investment back in order to sort out the problems. Not start juggling it around and trying to 'fool the bags' as Lee Evans put it. Charging more for less is their idea of keeping the infrastructure running, and that's because they are pulling the teets of the cash cow. My lines are forty years old. Don't you think BT have made enough money in forty years to replace them?

You completely missed my point. I don't care if BT had fiber running to your doorstep. They are still going to oversell the bandwidth. This is common practice in the industry. (I was sys admin for an ISP for a few years)

A file sharer does nothing but put the file there to be downloaded. Without the bandwidth and speed to download it they simply couldn't download it.

So shut off the Internet...? Not getting what you are saying here. Illegal goods are transferred across the interstates in the US daily. Let's shutdown the highway system or just close a few lanes?

There is a big difference between wanting and needing a fast connection, btw. If you need it? then you can have it. Selling 50mb connections to home users *IMO* makes no sense at all. Every one I know with a 50mb connection (and believe me there are a good few) all have it for no other reason that to leech.

They are still a minority. There are those out their with a 50Mb connection who have it just because they can. All they may do is surf facebook and don't need the connection, but some people "need" the best. I agree with you that they have no need for it, but to tell them they can't have it because they will become pirates is ludicrous.

Do people with 8Mbit service not pirate software? You keep bringing up 50Mb like it's a pirate's wet dream. We can't even get 50Mb residential in most places in the US. 8Mb is pretty average for US speeds. Piracy can be just as bad as with somebody on a bigger pipe.

 

[Diablo]

There was a time when I did occasionally pirate games, but that was when I was living on a small pocket money allowance. Even then I knew it was stealing. I still believe if there was a crackdown a lot of people who have done very little wrong may well end up with a criminal record, and I liken this to breaking the speed limit. Those that do it to a small degree may get done, whereas someone who exceeds it a lot, knows where the cameras are etc. gets away with it.

My use of fast broadband, such as the 1Gb line at uni, consists of no piracy, and the biggest DLs are normally steam games. Most media is cheap enough, as mentioned above is not a god given need or right. One of my friends pirates a lot, despite his 512Kb line. I dare say if I was living in a house full of internet happy people, 50Mb would be pretty skinny, if 3 or 4 people were downloading an HD iplayer stream, another DLing a game, it all adds up.

The problem with the government or ISPs monitoring the usage would be (going back to my speeding analogy) that people who were doing very little and didn't really know much about the internet would get nailed, whilst the huge leechers would be hiding behind something else never getting caught. The old lady would be caught doing 31MPH, whilst the dangerous street racer is not caught. Granted its breaking the law, but there are degrees of it.

At the end of the day though, those not pirating might possibly benefit from half the population losing their connections and have relatively quick lines?

 

[Youngie1337]

This topic could turn into something which this forum doesn't allow.

 

[alienware]

So you want the government and ISPs to monitor everything you do? I have nothing to hide, but that's a complete waste of time and money. Does your mailman read all your mail that passes through the post?

It's highly likely your letters are ran through a scanner. They are in the USA. No point opening words really.

If the internet is governed and monitored it will stop those whom you say you're annoyed at. Bonus surely? If you're not doing anything wrong then you don't have anything to worry about. When CCTV was introduced every one kicked up a big fuss. Sadly, as happens, they also whined when their car was stolen or broken into. You can't have it both ways because sadly not every one sees it as you do. Put something there to be abused, it will be abused by people who abused things.

Also, I don't believe freedom means I can do whatever I like, but I shouldn't be subjected to unfair searches and seizures. The whole guilty until proven innocent thing is a pile of shit.

Hardly. Downloading a file from an illicit website or torrent site is hardly being guilty until you are proven innocent, is it? You are red handed guilty. FYI - ISPs know *exactly* what you are doing. They know exactly what you are downloading, what the file names are and so on. They may never admit to it (and they bloody well won't) but they do. They also shape traffic and block ports ETC. All of which are out of agreement but they do it.

Business packages usually cost about double what the residential packages do for absolutely no gain. They tack on the name and an additional cost at the same time. I also said HD steams and high quality VOIP, totally different from something low quality like Vonage. It's more business/education oriented but argument still holds.

Right, and if you were using high quality VOIP and streams ETC then it's amazingly likely you would opt for a business package, as it would probably be business related. I wasn't aware this was an argument?

You completely missed my point. I don't care if BT had fiber running to your doorstep. They are still going to oversell the bandwidth. This is common practice in the industry. (I was sys admin for an ISP for a few years)

It's called greed. So I haven't missed your point at all.

So shut off the Internet...? Not getting what you are saying here. Illegal goods are transferred across the interstates in the US daily. Let's shutdown the highway system or just close a few lanes?

And that's exactly what they do on certain roads notorious for drug smuggling and so on. Stop checks they call it. Guilty before proven innocent you call it, I call it catching criminals. If ever stopped by the police I have always answered any questions they have and given them free reign to search me or my car. Basically because it confirms to me that they would do the same to some one carrying a knife or a gun, and so the mild inconvinience means little.

They are still a minority. There are those out their with a 50Mb connection who have it just because they can. All they may do is surf facebook and don't need the connection, but some people "need" the best. I agree with you that they have no need for it, but to tell them they can't have it because they will become pirates is ludicrous.

People with 50mb are a minority. People with 6-8mb are not. We're talking about something crazy like 80% of households. Most of those are used by 'modern kids' with 'god given right' syndrome. I know this first hand because for 7 of the 9 months I have had O2 it simply didn't work. I couldn't even watch a youtube video. However, take what you can and all that. Fact is they bloody ain't now. Since O2 started dishing out threats my internet has been right on the money. Funny that. Yet, had they not done that and given every one plenty of freedom then I would still be wasting £25 a month.

You can't have it both ways.

Do people with 8Mbit service not pirate software? You keep bringing up 50Mb like it's a pirate's wet dream. We can't even get 50Mb residential in most places in the US. 8Mb is pretty average for US speeds. Piracy can be just as bad as with somebody on a bigger pipe.

50mb is a pirate's wet dream. Simple. That's exactly what pirates want. Especially those who can afford to be frivolous with money. If I was into stealing stuff I would have a 50mb connection simply as it makes stealing stuff easier and faster.

The reason most of the US is so average is because it's so big. You have that excuse, we don't. Piracy is as bad on any pipe. And, lag and problems at peak times wasn't an issue on either Comcast cable in NJ, Verizon DSL in Maryland OR Roadrunner in Ohio. Here? I got 0.20mb from 5pm until 12am. Meaning I couldn't even watch a low res video on youtube. Because of the bellends. So, I am living proof that giving thieving chav bumholes a slap really does work.

However, I don't know who you are with but Comcast are the biggest crooks of all. Blocking ports, banning the use of others. All of which is avoidable if you know how to port forward and open certain ports (and configure software) but probably stops a lot of piracy to the dumbass who doesn't know how a router works.

BTW. As for your internet freedom? it doesn't exist. Hasn't since the Patriot act. They are free to sniff and watch whatever they want.

Edit. Your comment about being from different worlds? we are. Try living here for a while.

 

[Diablo]

A 50Mb line is not a pirate's wet dream, a gigabit or more line (which are actually less expensive than you might expect) with zero other users is probably more on the money for a major player. But then the ISP is never going to go after a big customer like that who pays upwards of £1000 a month when there are small fry exceeding their poxy download limits.

 

[Brooksie]

As Alien said, I do download games to "try" (if they don't have a demo) but 90% of the time I go and buy the game. For example I downloaded Starcraft 2 the other day because none of my friends that own the game had any trial keys. Played it and I bought it yesterday (full price of £40). Music for instance I either use spotify or youtube. If I find myself listening to the sound alot I bite the bullet and download it off iTunes for 79p which is barely anything.

The things I torrent the most are TV shows that have just aired in America and are not out in Britain yet (Clone Wars season 3, Sons of Anarchy season 3 and Eureka). I pay for the channels that these shows air on (Sky movies, Bravo and Sky 1) I'm just watching them before they air here.

Alot has changed since the days of Napster and Limewire.