Small talk & Chit chat

[AlienALX]

I still use the proxy bays to grab albums that either don't exist as CDs, or, are like £500 because they are so rare. And that's in the instance that it's even uploaded.

 

[looz]

Even ISPs can't even do that on a technological level anymore without IPv6(For a while really, the idea of using an IP address to track someone or work out someones location is a super dated concept in terms of reliable use), IPv4 addresses nowadays are dependant on Network address translation (NAT) so the same address can and often is reused across multiple people & households, obviously they're also dynamically allocated unless you force a static address so can change all the time randomly anyway.

This is the key reason why ISPs can't send out these letters anymore, the government pointed out their system for determining who carried out the infringement is fundamentally flawed on a technical level(Built on the now-misconception that IP addresses are unique).

ISPs definitely have the technology to figure out who torrented at certain time o'clock with a certain IP within their network. It's true that NATting is commonplace especially for mobile clients, but I'd be surprised if the leases and data flows aren't logged to some extent, even by default.

 

[NeverBackDown]

ISPs even if you used a VPN can still literally track everything you do. They can see where all the traffic is coming from and being sent. It's not difficult to figure out what that traffic is if it's hidden behind a VPN.

 

[Warchild]

ISPs definitely have the technology to figure out who torrented at certain time o'clock with a certain IP within their network. It's true that NATting is commonplace especially for mobile clients, but I'd be surprised if the leases and data flows aren't logged to some extent, even by default.

Not even sure they are allowed to with GDPR in place now so tgrech could be right. Knowing what you torrented comes down to breach of personal data and info.

 

[grec]

https://assets.publishing.service.g...achment_data/file/540547/IP_Resolution_IA.pdf

ISPs have to use systems other than IP resolution in order to have information that is reliable. IP resolution has been roundly lambasted as a method of identification in UK courts for around a decade. http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWPCC/2011/6.html

“91. ... 2. Even if it is proof of infringement by somebody, merely identifying that an IP address has been involved with infringement then encounters the Saccharin problem. It is not at all clear to me that the person identified must be infringing one way or another. The fact that someone may have infringed does not mean the particular named defendant has done so. Perhaps the holder of the account with the ISP has a duty to assist along the lines of a respondent to another Norwich Pharmacal order but that is very different from saying they are infringing."

My point was about the legal admissibility of the evidence, not whether you can use it to make loose and rough assertions about possible actions, CGNAT(Which can assign the same IP address to multiple users simultaneously) makes ISP side logging a necessity in order to do any form of identification at all.


Edit: But yes as Warchild says IP addresses are now considered personal information under EU law and cannot be logged or stored unless essential to the operation of the ISP.

 

[looz]

ISPs even if you used a VPN can still literally track everything you do. They can see where all the traffic is coming from and being sent. It's not difficult to figure out what that traffic is if it's hidden behind a VPN.

Uh what, no, ISP will know the VPN you're connected to, and amount of traffic moving through that connection. They do not know what you're reaching through that VPN.

Also, yes, IP address *alone* isn't enough information. But NAT can log the leases, and traffic flows are constantly being monitored just to ensure that the network works. You can definitely pinpoint which router connected to the ISP's network did the torrenting. What you quoted is about, for example, customer running an open WiFi or has been owned by someone.

GDPR also allows this, since it's essential information for keeping the lights running. ISPs are *required by law* to log to some extent in many legislations, not different from phone calls. It's to make law enforcement possible.

 

[NeverBackDown]

Uh what, no, ISP will know the VPN you're connected to, and amount of traffic moving through that connection. They do not know what you're reaching through that VPN.

Also, yes, IP address *alone* isn't enough information. But NAT can log the leases, and traffic flows are constantly being monitored just to ensure that the network works. You can definitely pinpoint which router connected to the ISP's network did the torrenting. What you quoted is about, for example, customer running an open WiFi or has been owned by someone.

GDPR also allows this, since it's essential information for keeping the lights running. ISPs are *required by law* to log to some extent in many legislations, not different from phone calls. It's to make law enforcement possible.

Sorry to say this is incorrect. Even through a VPN they can still figure out what you are doing. They also know plenty of VPN IP addresses as well. They may let you connect to them but they definitely know what connection is being made. My brother was torrenting through a VPN. 5 days later we got a letter in the mail stating exactly the time period, content, and file name of what was downloaded.
They aren't dumb. Just a little bit of work on there part and they can figure out exactly what was done without so much as cracking the encryption.

 

[looz]

Than that is an incorrectly configured VPN/bad VPN provider or he forgot to use it.


And it doesn't matter if they know the IP addresses. With right settings, all they can see data going from your IP, to VPN's IP, they'll know when you used the VPN and how much traffic was generated. If the shape of that traffic for instance matches the traffic to a honeypot, which at the same time is uploading to an IP owned by the VPN service, sure, that can be figured out. But that's way more elaborate than any ISP would do to catch random pirates.

 

[grec]

Nah that case is referring to an individuals mobile phone connection that was used for copyright violations, the point the judge is making is that even traffic flow on a private router/device within a secure network cannot prove that someone entitled to use that network or who pays for that network is responsible for the traffic flow within it. Over 9000 IP addresses were linked to copyright infringement in this case while O2 had information that could put those IP addresses to a name, however the judge rejected this methodology for identification.

I think NeverBackDown is referring to packet sniffing where you can start to make well educated guesses on the content of packets passing through a VPN based on external analysis techniques but obviously this is a time consuming and complex task that certainly doesn't tell you everything but can in theory be used to identify copyright violation.

What you said may be true in some countries, but not the UK:

However, there are gaps in communications data capability that have a serious impact on the ability of law enforcement to carry out their functions. One such gap is Internet Protocol (IP) address resolution.
• IP resolution is the ability to identify who in the real world was using an Internet IP address at a given point in time. An IP address is automatically allocated by a network provider to a customer’s internet connection so that communications can be routed backwards and forwards to the customer.
• Communications service providers (CSPs) may share IP addresses between multiple users. The providers currently often have no business purpose for keeping a log of which device used each address.
• Therefore, as there is no existing legal requirement for CSPs to keep a log of devices and addresses, it is not always possible for law enforcement agencies to identify through their enquiries who was using an IP address at any particular time.

 

[NeverBackDown]

Was enabled, was a vpn with 256bit encryption. You can name whatever you want, I saw it enabled and watched him to do it. Still got a letter.
Suppose US ISPs have much more advanced tools at there disposal. Certainly Americans have less privacy anyways.

 

[grec]

Using a VPN on its own won't secure the data and require packet sniffing, an insecure VPN is less secure than no VPN.

 

[looz]

That is my point - you can pinpoint the customer whose connection was used, if there's info on what the IP was, when it happened and what the connection was used for. But it doesn't mean the person paying for the connection did it, like you explained. NAT is largely irrelevant when talking about ISP's ability to pinpoint the offender, it's completely transparent to them. It does hinder third parties ability, no question.

When it's about piracy which IMO shouldn't be a crime at all for those not seeding the content, yeah they won't pursue it further. If it was something more serious, it's a whole different story.



Yeah NBD's brother didn't get packet sniffed. Error in user's end or VPN provider's. ISP does not see the underlying protocol with a correctly configured VPN, just packets which contain 5tuple and an encrypted payload.

 

[Warchild]

What you said may be true in some countries, but not the UK:

Norway have quite strict rules. Although not part of EU, we still follow legislations here. Norwegian authorities like NKOM are extremely strict on data leaving the country.

Our very own HLR that was originally based in Sweden was relocated to Norway due to us purchasing a company that handled police information.

But in general, what you quoted I believe applies to all countries within the EU. I don't believe there are exceptions except in cases where over protection is requested. Any country wanted a more relaxed "lets call it big brother" approach I would think would be rejected.

However can someone request a reasonably priced (even free) VPN for viewing of UK terrestrial TV?
Kinda sucked I missed six nations this year. Not to mention upcoming Rugby world cup and Football matches. Nothing beats English commentary.

 

[looz]

ISPs most definitely store customer IPs everywhere, and know to whom (and in this case who can be plural) they're provisioning each IP.


Access to that information is obviously limited, and as such GDPR compliant, and so is the time it's stored.

 

[NeverBackDown]

Started using Github and Git bash today, my first introduction into software management. Kinda intimidating! Glad I had lots of help lol

 

[grec]

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/science...-science-based-conspiracy-theories-do-britons

This is pretty shocking, 1 in 3 Britons still being played by the oil lobby pseudo-science that climate change isn't an active threat. 1 in 5 still don't believe vaccines are safe, 1 in 6 think the moon landings were faked, 1 in 7 still think the Earth was created in 7 days as described in genesis. 1 in 33 think the Earth is probably flat.

I think there's no better proof that we need better education on critical thinking skills and the background of peer reviewed empirical Science and how it works and ensures its conclusions are sound and why Scientific theories are not theories in the traditional English language sense of the word.

 

[Dicehunter]

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/science...-science-based-conspiracy-theories-do-britons

This is pretty shocking, 1 in 3 Britons still being played by the oil lobby pseudo-science that climate change isn't an active threat. 1 in 5 still don't believe vaccines are safe, 1 in 6 think the moon landings were faked, 1 in 7 still think the Earth was created in 7 days as described in genesis. 1 in 33 think the Earth is probably flat.

I think there's no better proof that we need better education on critical thinking skills and the background of peer reviewed empirical Science and how it works and ensures its conclusions are sound and why Scientific theories are not theories in the traditional English language sense of the word.

While I do believe that vaccines work, There's been a batch of vaccines that do nothing, Literally nothing, My dad got a flu vaccine 2 years ago and it came out that it did Sweet-FA, What it did do however is get the doctor a nice bonus.

 

[grec]

The flu virus evolves over time, it is not a single virus, it is a broad name for many viruses, a flu vaccine tries to target the most common variations at a given time, it will not get all of them and will become irrelevant over time as the virus evolves, sometimes these vaccines will be irrelevant by the time they're ready for use.

 

[Dicehunter]

The flu virus evolves over time, it is not a single virus, it is a broad name for many viruses, a flu vaccine tries to target the most common variations at a given time, it will not get all of them and will become irrelevant over time as the virus evolves, sometimes these vaccines will be irrelevant by the time they're ready for use.

It's not that it's that the vaccine didn't contain anything, It was just water, It was a bit of a scandal and the doctor has since been moved.

 

[grec]

Oh yeah that's a bit different though, that's just straight up fraud really, can happen with anything. Counterfeit medicine is still a problem but I think one we can agree has improved with better science.