Small talk & Chit chat

The only party with a fully costed manifesto backed by hundreds of economists last election was Labour.

The Tories, who were claiming we had to tighten our belts, shockingly immediately pulled £1Bn out of nowhere to pay off the DUP MPs to give the Tories power. They tell us we can't spend a couple hundred million more on our NHS to save lives and get people back contributing into our economy quicker, but they can pull it out their asses whenever they might lose power?

The idea that a countries economics is as simple as book balancing is a complete myth, no modern economist argues austerity is a way out of economic hardship, all modern examples from other countries shows you need initial investment in services before people can start to contribute to the economy. Dead, homeless, or incarcerated people can't contribute to the economy, we can't solve crime, poverty or sickness while cutting away all the police, social services and NHS staff.

All the things costing our country the most right now including crime rates and skyrocketing NHS costs can be directly linked to the consequences of austerity, of course these things still cost us money before but the complications of these issues are far beyond what they were 10 years ago.

I'm fortunate enough to have close links to a country that follows exactly the opposite line of thinking to the UK over the last decade, a country that embraces democratic socialism with open arms. This is a country that had the strongest growth in the EU through the financial crisis, and has the strongest and fastest growing technology and industrial sectors in the EU, and they're set to have the fastest growing full economy of any EU nation this year. I don't need to guess at which system works better, I've lived in both.

Worth noting, over this time period in which Malta has had an amazing economic transformation, they also were taking in more refugees than any other EU nation by a significant margin, often more than 100 times more than other EU nations around the start of the Arab spring, a nation with a population roughly the size of Leicester. Did it destroy their amazing state funded healthcare system? Or the robust welfare system? Did these refugees milk the public services? No, they continued with the jobs they would have if their country wasn't bombed to sh*t, and contributed to the local economy.

This British fetish for right wing economics is borne entirely out of the idea that everyone just wants to do each other over and will screw each other for whatever they can get. Many British people probably would and do. But most humans are not like this, the idea that selfishness & greed are inevitabilities of human nature is true, but the idea that they're widespread problems with most of the nation and that we should build our economy around it (IE the basis for libertarian capitalism) is something that I think says more about the minds of the proponents of these systems than the minds of most people.

Interesting points which I agree almost entirely with.

I just can't help but think, if we actually had the money surely we would have already followed a Nordic style approach to state benefit etc.

I agree entirely though that sometimes you need to spend money to make money. I always think Roads are the best analogy for this.

Look at all the awful road surfaces in the UK due to the sub-par patch work that happens when fixing pot holes etc. If only the UK invested in top notch work, we would almost certainly save money in the long run
 
I find it hard to believe that the fifth largest economy in the world, which has the worlds largest financial centre and largest economy city in Europe as its capital, with 3.5% of the worlds total GDP, is somehow too poor to follow a model that several vastly less wealthy countries are following successfully. The levels of wealth inequality in the UK are insane compared to the total wealth here.

The rhetoric used by the elites that we don't have the money to invest in basic services is pretty unjustified when you compare to other nations over this time period, we actually came out the financial crisis in 2009 much better than many, most of the damage to peoples lives has been from the austerity after it.

(It's not like we're asking for full democratic socialism here, just to have a functional amount of police on the streets and doctors in the hospitals for a start)
 
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There was no fair and square about it, the whole campaign was fuelled by lies and hatred and that is why people refuse to accept it.

They also planned it during the glastonbury festival to ensure many young voters were away having fun.

Had Nigel Farage not been involved with his lies and BS. Then I would agree it was voted fair and square.

Still waiting to see where that 350mill per week for the NHS is gonna come from. After all, that was the halo for the people.
 
I find it hard to believe that the fifth largest economy in the world, which has the worlds largest financial centre and largest economy city in Europe as its capital, with 3.5% of the worlds total GDP, is somehow too poor to follow a model that several vastly less wealthy countries are following successfully. The levels of wealth inequality in the UK are insane compared to the total wealth here.

The rhetoric used by the elites that we don't have the money to invest in basic services is pretty unjustified when you compare to other nations over this time period, we actually came out the financial crisis in 2009 much better than many, most of the damage to peoples lives has been from the austerity after it.

(It's not like we're asking for full democratic socialism here, just to have a functional amount of police on the streets and doctors in the hospitals for a start)

The fifth largest economy in the world is not anywhere in EU. It's been California for almost a year now. Capitalism is the only thing that works. Just because they don't run it right doesn't mean it's a failure. Just means they are being selfish and using power to stay in power at the cost of others. Socialism won't help. Want to know how I know? I live in California. They are turning it into socialism. The sole reason the economy is going up? The right wing has deregulated. The right wing has lowered federal and business taxes. Before that? People were leaving California at the highest rate in history. It's just a bubble. It'll go back down. However socialism is crap, want to know how they are trying to pay for all the illegal aliens coming into my state? They want to start taxing text messages WITH back pay from the last 5 years of text messages. Or how about taxing how much you drive everyday, on top of raising gas tax, car registration, and just buying the car in general. Which increases insurance as a result. All for illegals who don't pay anything and get free everything. They just raised taxes for other things as well. So many I can't even remember.

Then before all this goes into effect the leftist activist people praise California. After some gone through the government and taxes go up, they start complaining about lack of money and blame capitalism. Endless circle.
 
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That was in the context of the start of austerity/end of the financial crisis IE 2009ish, of course since Brexits uncertainty began to impact the economy we've slipped a long way, a lot of the reason California overtook is because of the drastic change in the exchange rate of the £ against the $ which is of course used as the benchmark since its the main world reserve currency.

I don't really get what socialism has anything to do with illegal immigrants, if they're illegal then aren't they by definition of that word not there at the sanction of the government, there's a big difference between refugees and illegal immigrants in both their circumstances and how international law requires nations to handle them.
 
That was in the context of the start of austerity/end of the financial crisis IE 2009ish, of course since Brexits uncertainty began to impact the economy we've slipped a long way, a lot of the reason California overtook is because of the drastic change in the exchange rate of the £ against the $ which is of course used as the benchmark since its the main world reserve currency.

I don't really get what socialism has anything to do with illegal immigrants, if they're illegal then aren't they by definition of that word not there at the sanction of the government, there's a big difference between refugees and illegal immigrants in both their circumstances and how international law requires nations to handle them.

It has everything to do with socialism. Do you not know what socialism is? It's where everybody has everything equal. They are getting all these free services equal to those who pay for free. It's the first step towards socialism. Except they don't pay anything and the citizens pay for everything. Socialism 101. It's not entirely socialism as I said as it's the first step, but we are definitely heading there. It's turning into an oligarchy socialist state. As all modern socialism is heading towards whether the middle class sees it or not.
 
I live in the city where the concept of socialism/communism comes from at least Marxist and derived forms and so of course I've heard many many interpretations in my life. But for all intents and purposes democratic socialism operates in many European states and primarily focusses on ensuring the basic needs of everyone is met regardless of their background & income, this is not just for humanitarian reasons but more prominently nowadays because of the economic benefits that a healthy happy well fed and sheltered population has on productivity rates and reducing the cost put on absolute last resort state funded services. Good social care can and does significantly reduce the strain more on say the police force.
 
Pretty sure every country in the EU is capitalist. The reason for all your free stuff is because of capitalism.
Hard to argue really. Both Continents have different perspectives of what is capitalism and socialism. Well mat not be hard to argue I just however don't care enough to read into EU history of socialism and the differences between the two differing ideologies
 
Socialism was always meant to coexist with capitalism, the Communist manifesto was written in the context of the start of the first industrial revolution here in Manchester from the perspective of two workers (Marx and Engels) as an attempt at a scientific/empirical analysis of the relationship between capital and labour and how those values should be balanced in the context of human happyness and productivity. So it was written in the context of a capitalist state that already had a long history of trade unionism derived from medieval trade guilds and analysed how technology would impact the relationship of labour with capital and how automation would impact that and how eventually the fruits of these increasingly automated machines would have to be shared increasingly evenly between the operators of the machinery as opposed to the owners of the machinery as the cost of the machinery sky rocketed but the output increase exponentially. I personally think many people will come to understand their point much better with how AI leading the (fifth?) industrial revolution is a big leap over the last few in the brutality of expected job losses if there isn't some kind of universal basic income fallback layer while people adjust to the mega mega skills changes required from future nations and companies. Capitalism brutality in technological progress has meant this was always obviously inevitable even to these 19th century thinkers who knew nothing of what the technology would eventually manifest itself as.

Of course these writings were then reinterpreted and respoken in ways used to motivate peasants who often couldn't actually read into revolts against other corrupt feudal governments just as say the Bible or any emotive writings in history have been but corrupt men have twisted all sorts of concepts to push their will and still do with religion or ideology in many countries.
 
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For a change of pace, Because I said in work around 3 weeks ago "I generally don't like smartphones as they are conversation killers" one of the women has put in a complaint about me being against the staff having phones etc... which I never said.

Seriously, You go against the herd mentality of "muh phones" and all hell breaks loose.
 
For a change of pace, Because I said in work around 3 weeks ago "I generally don't like smartphones as they are conversation killers" one of the women has put in a complaint about me being against the staff having phones etc... which I never said.

Seriously, You go against the herd mentality of "muh phones" and all hell breaks loose.


I know right, as soon as you try to make a gentle observation about a true thing, people freak out like you trying to take away something holy.


kinda sad.
 
No you wouldn't, you'd be able to apply for settled status. You don't have to be a British citizen to stay in Britain as long as you lived here before 2020.
https://www.gov.uk/settled-status-eu-citizens-families/what-settled-and-presettled-status-means
Thanks for the info, Been here since I was 6, Now 33 so I think I'm safe ^_^

I know right, as soon as you try to make a gentle observation about a true thing, people freak out like you trying to take away something holy.

kinda sad.

I have a very basic mobile phone, No internet, No touch screen, No camera, Just text, Phone, The ability to store numbers and an alarm, Somehow this make me weird and according to quite a few people I've interacted with, Other should be wary of someone like me because I don't have a smart phone.


The word "Sheeple" comes to mind.
 
I have a very basic mobile phone, No internet, No touch screen, No camera, Just text, Phone, The ability to store numbers and an alarm, Somehow this make me weird and according to quite a few people I've interacted with, Other should be wary of someone like me because I don't have a smart phone.


The word "Sheeple" comes to mind.


I applaud you sir, holding out on a basic phone on principle, its a good thing and one i wish more people would do.


I do have a smartphone but its very cheap and i avoid any and all social media where most of this pressure comes from to begin with, but being able to look up stuff or have my spotify playlist with me on the go is kind of a lovely luxury to have.
 
I applaud you sir, holding out on a basic phone on principle, its a good thing and one i wish more people would do.

I do have a smartphone but its very cheap and i avoid any and all social media where most of this pressure comes from to begin with, but being able to look up stuff or have my spotify playlist with me on the go is kind of a lovely luxury to have.


If you like them then good for you, That's always been my mindset, But it's the fact that because I have made a choice that doesn't align with the herd I've had people nearly get physically violent with me... because of me NOT wanting a smartphone, Completely insane.
 
So Theresa May is soon gone and we're getting an emergency PM in the next 10 days, possible Gove or Hunt. Not sure how they manage to find worse people with each resignation, maybe it's time they let their membership vote for a party leader rather than letting their internal toss fest decide the countries fate every time.

https://twitter.com/davidschneider/status/1109578320197443585

Good, because in all honesty even I was starting to worry.

As every day passed she seemed more and more crazy, determined to Brexit in whatever way or means possible. Honestly, she was starting to scare me, and believe me I have seen it all, being a monthly patient at my local nut shop (the psychs).

I think she seriously lost the plot, and became so encompassed in narcissism she would have seen the entire country collapse into rack and ruin. -edit (dammit man, finish sentences !!) just so that she could win, and say she had done it. It almost reminds me of Hitler, with a fanny.
 
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