Small talk & Chit chat

[grec]

The only government that should actively be blamed is the Chinese government, They knew of the virus 1 month prior to it going fully public and even threatened the doctor who ended up blowing the whistle.

China should be severely sanctioned after this is over and made to sit down with other countries and forced to clean up it's act as every few years a deadly virus comes out of that cesspit, No more eating everything that walks, Climbs, Slithers, Flys and crawls and wet markets should be forcefully shutdown.

I think we have to tackle these claims head on, because there is already international worry, including from the WHO, that some Western governments are spreading misinformation about China's actions and investigation of the disease in order to alleviate pressure from their bad handling of it. Of course, the US has unfortunately jumped to full blown state propaganda levels.

If you want independent sources with no national interests I suggest the WHO, or even Wikipedia.

If other countries had tackled this issue as quickly as China had we'd be probably be on the other side of the curve by now. When it's a matter of saving lines, I think people need to put their national pride aside, look aat the cold hard data from verified international sources, and accept they handled it better and we need to learn from their lessons.

The first verified case of coronavirus according to the WHO was on the 1st of December, and given you can "track back" a likely starting date simply by extrapolating from the case curve, it seems this must be very close to the first case, at least in someone with contact with the outside world. Doctor Zhang Jixian informed the hospital she thought the clusters were suspicious on December 27th. This was verified by the 31st, a public health release was put out, and the World Health Organisation was informed on the same day. It wasn't until the 2nd week of January that any official health organisation it the world had suspected this was caused by a human transmitable disease, to quote the World Health Organisation on the 3rd of January, who said the Chinese government had been cooperating fully with passing on information:

"There are many potential causes of viral pneumonia, many of which are more common than severe acute respiratory syndrome coronovirus," the spokesman added. "WHO is closely monitoring this event and will share more details as we have them. "

Finally, only a week later, the Chinese government responded with the largest quarantine in world history [Edit: Until India's lockdown today?].

The only other particularly deadly outbreak(One that has caused over 15K deaths) in the 21st century came from the Americas (Swine flu), and that killed at least x10 times more. Did you say the same about Western cultures desire for eating pigs?

 

[NeverBackDown]

The only government that should actively be blamed is the Chinese government, They knew of the virus 1 month prior to it going fully public and even threatened the doctor who ended up blowing the whistle.

China should be severely sanctioned after this is over and made to sit down with other countries and forced to clean up it's act as every few years a deadly virus comes out of that cesspit, No more eating everything that walks, Climbs, Slithers, Flys and crawls and wet markets should be forcefully shutdown.

Yep China just seems to like diseases. The doctor who discovered it btw was mysteriously "missing" after trying to get the scientific community to pay attention...

Certain people can disagree but it is what it is.

 

[Dicehunter]

Yep China just seems to like diseases. The doctor who discovered it btw was mysteriously "missing" after trying to get the scientific community to pay attention...

Certain people can disagree but it is what it is.

Yep, China should just be cut off from the rest of the world until hygiene wise it moves into the 21st century.

 

[grec]

Yep China just seems to like diseases. The doctor who discovered it btw was mysteriously "missing" after trying to get the scientific community to pay attention...

Certain people can disagree but it is what it is.

Doctor Zhang Jixian, the first person to discover it and bring it to the world attention, was officially awarded by the Hubei province government for championing the fight against the coronavirus pneumonia cases and diagnosing the first cases back in January, and is now head of the respiratory department at Hubei Provincial Hospital.

I assume this conspiracy theory is mixing her up with Dr Li Wenliang, who's private message was inadvertently leaked before the official 3 day investigation had concluded, and died before he was exonerated of whistle-blowing charges, rightly leading to calls for greater freedom of speech in China. However, its worth noting that this investigation had no impact or delay on the progression of understanding of the virus or the awareness of it amongst the international community, his private message was leaked by others in his group chat to journalists at the same time the WHO was first made aware of the unknown pneumonia cases he was referring to.

Disagreeing with the worlds health authorities is not a good look, pumping out conspiracy theories no better.

Yep, China should just be cut off from the rest of the world until hygiene wise it moves into the 21st century.

To make such claims in the face of overwhelming evidence and international consensus must either be an attempt to make excuses for the fact that we in Europe are seeing our older generation die off much more rapidly than countries who bit the bullet and locked down straight away(And I get that, it's shocking and it only makes sense your natural psychological reaction is outright denial), or xenophobia.

Either way, pointing fingers while thousands are dying in our own countries every day helps no one, only we have the power to save our older generations and most vulnerable, at least stop trying to pass the buck with whats happening in our own hospitals(And the spread occurring in our own streets) until after our family members have stopped dying please, we can still do more to slow this down.

 

[Warchild]

Why do people blame governments? The medical experts didn't even know what it was until December. They didn't even recommend any action. The past outbreaks of diseases haven't required any drastic action be taken? Why over react and cause panic? This isn't the fault of government. Regardless if they did more it still would have spread and as the experts have said the only cure is time. Even with a vaccine. To suggest we could have been over it already is just wrong.

People can do what they want as long as they aren't infecting others. If you stay away from older people then why not go out? You won't infect anyone just because you go outside. Now mass gatherings where stranger's are? Sure probably should stay away from that but if it's just a couple of friends why not?


There are far more widespread diseases in the world. Nobody cares about those. More people die from the flu and 6 months ago I didn't see a single soul in the world advocate government to do more.

Actually thats wrong. A chinese doctor and one of the very first to die warned the chinese government in October about COVID 19. They instead sacked him. And I can blame some goverments for their slow reaction. Look at boris johnson "lets build an immunity with certain groups of people" "we know some of your loved ones will die but.. etc" and Now that deaths are spiralling in UK, hes finally stepped in for the lock down.

He could have acted faster and saved maybe 300 lives.

 

[AlienALX]

Actually thats wrong. A chinese doctor and one of the very first to die warned the chinese government in October about COVID 19. They instead sacked him. And I can blame some goverments for their slow reaction. Look at boris johnson "lets build an immunity with certain groups of people" "we know some of your loved ones will die but.. etc" and Now that deaths are spiralling in UK, hes finally stepped in for the lock down.

He could have acted faster and saved maybe 300 lives.

The problem with the UK is it is full of know alls. As such had he acted too swiftly they'd have all cried b***ocks. Or accused him of a conspiracy of some sort.

Yes, his approach was laid back but he's done a decent job IMO. It's not like we weren't warned. Many chose to ignore it, now he can put stiffer sanctions in place and people can't say he is trying to implant chips in their brain or something else stupid.

What we should have done was immediately halt flights and put every one in quarantine at the airport to stop it getting in. In fact, many years ago as part of my O level (before I walked out of school) we were doing a thesis on this sort of thing and what we would do about it. That was the first thing.

 

[grec]

Actually thats wrong. A chinese doctor and one of the very first to die warned the chinese government in October about COVID 19. They instead sacked him. And I can blame some goverments for their slow reaction. Look at boris johnson "lets build an immunity with certain groups of people" "we know some of your loved ones will die but.. etc" and Now that deaths are spiralling in UK, hes finally stepped in for the lock down.

I mentioned Dr Li Wenliang in my message above. It's an unfortunate case, but please look up the wealth of independently verified information on his case, he did not think or know it could be a human transferable disease until December 30th, the same day the WHO were notified, and the first day any test results had came in that could prove such a conclusion.

What we should have done was immediately halt flights and put every one in quarantine at the airport to stop it getting in. In fact, many years ago as part of my O level (before I walked out of school) we were doing a thesis on this sort of thing and what we would do about it. That was the first thing.

No evidence suggests this will help with this virus long term, which is why we have not halted any flights into the country, even from infected areas. The hard data we have shows that the best path forward is a rigorous containment stage, which is why it's what essentially every country in the world has now adopted, even if some were slow off the mark.

Boris is probably doing the best he can with the advisers he has, but at this point we have quotes showing that Boris's chief political adviser (somehow) Dominic Cummings wanted to go down the scientifically illiterate "herd immunity" route that would have caused unnecessary death to hundreds or thousands more. Cummings is a known eugenicist, hated even by Tory MPs, who should have been on the chopping block long ago, but his ability at media spin is worth too much to Boris I guess.

 

[Warchild]

I mentioned Dr Li Wenliang in my message above. It's an unfortunate case, but please look up the wealth of independently verified information on his case, he did not think or know it could be a human transferable disease until December 30th, the same day the WHO were notified.

hmm. I need to try and find the article, because the one I read stated he notified that it was transmitted via droplets.

 

[grec]

hmm. I need to try and find the article, because the one I read stated he notified that it was transmitted via droplets.

I've not read this anywhere, but it's worth noting even if he did theorise that(and I can't find anything suggesting he did), no evidence was available to verify that until much later than the first cases, there doesn't seem to have been any testing performed to check for this until Doctor Zhang Jixian requested it on December 27th, after noticing the then still tiny amount of cases were clustered, and a 3 day investigation to verify this followed.

With the rate at which we now know and can prove the virus spreads, it seems mathematically inconceivable there could have been many cases before December, and certainly there are no verified cases before then. If there were even a handful of symptomatic cases in October, the number of cases internationally would be much higher now according to the statistical data.

 

[Dicehunter]

The problem with the UK is it is full of know alls. As such had he acted too swiftly they'd have all cried b***ocks. Or accused him of a conspiracy of some sort.

Yes, his approach was laid back but he's done a decent job IMO. It's not like we weren't warned. Many chose to ignore it, now he can put stiffer sanctions in place and people can't say he is trying to implant chips in their brain or something else stupid.

What we should have done was immediately halt flights and put every one in quarantine at the airport to stop it getting in. In fact, many years ago as part of my O level (before I walked out of school) we were doing a thesis on this sort of thing and what we would do about it. That was the first thing.

Bingo, Lots of arm chair scientists and the very fact we know it came out of china due to their disgusting eating habits and the way they treat live stock we now have morons in the west defending them.

 

[grec]

Bingo, Lots of arm chair scientists and the very fact we know it came out of china due to their disgusting eating habits and the way they treat live stock we now have morons in the west defending them.

Yeah, the World Health Organisation (The source of every piece of information I have posted, as anyone can independently verify using Google) are the bunch of morons and armchair scientists, and you're the actual expert, obviously.

 

[AlienALX]

Yeah, the World Health Organisation (The source of every piece of information I have posted, as anyone can independently verify using Google) are the bunch of morons and armchair scientists, and you're the actual expert, obviously.

He was talking about the moronic general public.

 

[grec]

He was talking about the moronic general public.

The British general public have followed Boris' muddled advice every step of the way, I can't imagine the U-turns in policy have helped. Even today, last night they said only essential workers should go to work, today they say it's anyone who needs to earn a living and can't work from home.

But Dice was talking about China, no one in the general public is worried about defending China. They have a shocking human rights record. But that is irrelevant to this, where we have to look at the hard data in order to save lives.

 

[Dicehunter]

He was talking about the moronic general public.

Yep but sadly certain people like to twist other peoples words to go on and on and on and on.

 

[grec]

Yep but sadly certain people like to twist other peoples words to go on and on and on and on.

According to YouGov polling, the British general public, with the exception of the over 65 age group, has agreed with the WHO's policies over the governments every step of the way, so my point stands anyway.

We have a general public with a significant portion who has been literally begging to be locked down, and a government that has refused, in turn refusing to follow the advice of the worlds health experts.

Our government literally ignored the experts at the WHO to follow a data model until earlier this week, that turned out to be scientifically incorrect and based on flawed assumptions.

Even now there is cause for concern that the UK government is not following the WHO's advice.

 

[AlienALX]

According to YouGov polling, the British general public, with the exception of the over 65 age group, has agreed with the WHO's policies over the governments every step of the way, so my point stands anyway.

We have a general public with a significant portion who has been literally begging to be locked down, and a government that has refused, in turn refusing to follow the advice of the worlds health experts.

Our government literally ignored the experts at the WHO to follow a data model until earlier this week, that turned out to be scientifically incorrect and based on flawed assumptions.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-51988877?SThisFB

And then the public refused to do what was asked of them and thought about themselves.

Maybe they're doing it more today IDK. But they didn't do it yesterday. And they have plenty of information they're just morons.

Just like those panic buying. The UK has been the worst country in the EU for it.

Whatever though.

 

[grec]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-51988877?SThisFB

And then the public refused to do what was asked of them and thought about themselves.

Maybe they're doing it more today IDK. But they didn't do it yesterday. And they have plenty of information they're just morons.

Just like those panic buying. The UK has been the worst country in the EU for it.

Whatever though.

On Friday Boris told people that they can still go outside to get exercise, fresh air, ect.
That is what people did, they went to usually quiet areas to get a day off, especially given many had now had to stop working and had free time, and before possibly a long period of quarantine. The issue is that everyone thought of that idea at the same time (Because Boris told everyone that idea at the same time), so everyone did it at the same time, and what would normally be very quiet beach's and national parks, suddenly became packed.

Any behavioural scientist worth their paycheck would have realised that was a dismal thing for the government to recommend before they did it, hence why most governments didn't give this foolish advice.

Similarly, we've had been very few cases of actual panic buying causing stock issues, besides some psychopaths with specific items, research shows the lack of stock in stores is simply because the government has told people that they may need 2 weeks of supply in their house. Guess what happens when everyone thinks they have to buy two weeks worth of food at once? (PS Slightly smaller supermarkets and cornershops had no problems, because no one went to those places to do their weekly (or fortnightly) shop)

Even 27 hours before the lockdown announcement, Boris laughed in shock when a journalist suggested we may need a police enforced lockdown at some point. The governments messaging has been an absolute mess, and you can see it by comparing any given days coronavirus report with the advice given in the one the day before.

 

[Dicehunter]

On Friday Boris told people that they can still go outside to get exercise, fresh air, ect.
That is what people did, they went to usually quiet areas to get a day off, especially given many had now had to stop working and had free time, and before possibly a long period of quarantine. The issue is that everyone thought of that idea at the same time (Because Boris told everyone that idea at the same time), so everyone did it at the same time, and what would normally be very quiet beach's and national parks, suddenly became packed.

Any behavioural scientist worth their paycheck would have realised that was a dismal thing for the government to recommend before they did it, hence why most governments didn't give this foolish advice.

Similarly, we've had been very few cases of actual panic buying causing stock issues, besides some psychopaths with specific items, research shows the lack of stock in stores is simply because the government has told people that they may need 2 weeks of supply in their house. Guess what happens when everyone thinks they have to buy two weeks worth of food at once?

Even 27 hours before the lockdown announcement, Boris laughed in shock when a journalist suggested we may need a police enforced lockdown at some point. The governments messaging has been an absolute mess, and you can see it by comparing any given days coronavirus report with the advice given in the one the day before.

You may want to stop believing everything the news tells you, Every store where I live has been ransacked, Including the big ones like Morrisons, Asda, Tesco, Iceland etc... similar stories from friends up and down the country, I was able to find 1 little bag of oatmeal and milk powder in my town, People are panic buying and it's not just 1 or 2 people doing it.

 

[grec]

You may want to stop believing everything the news tells you, Every store where I live has been ransacked, Including the big ones like Morrisons, Asda, Tesco, Iceland etc... similar stories from friends up and down the country, I was able to find 1 little bag of oatmeal and milk powder in my town, People are panic buying and it's not just 1 or 2 people doing it.

Did you check your smaller supermarkets or just the big ones? The big ones were all empty because that's where people go to do their weekly (or bigger) shops. I didn't see a single small supermarket (Tesco Express or similar) or cornershop with notable issues in contrast.

But my point is, it doesn't take panic buying to clear stock from big supermarkets, if everyone is going out and buying just two times what they normally do (IE 2 weeks of shopping rather than one), you literally have a 200% the demand supermarkets would usually plan for with stock. For larger supermarkets, of course stocking double what they normally need is a much bigger task than doing so for smaller ones, and those are the places people are more likely to go to try and do big shops.

 

[Dicehunter]

Did you check your smaller supermarkets or just the big ones? The big ones were all empty because that's where people go to do their weekly (or bigger) shops. I didn't see a single small supermarket (Tesco Express or similar) or cornershop with notable issues in contrast.

But my point is, it doesn't take panic buying to clear stock from big supermarkets, if everyone is going out and buying just two times what they normally do (IE 2 weeks of shopping rather than one), you literally have a 200% the demand supermarkets would usually plan for with stock.

Went all over my town, Again, Same thing with friends up and down the country.