Over 25% of Steam Users are using Windows 10 64-bit

[SuB]

as for peripherals..
i dont have a single thing that worked on windows 7 that wont work on windows 10.. what do you have that wont work on 10 but will work on 7?

x52 has issues, x55 has issues, the are mixed reports on the x65 having issues, I imagine the warthog will have issues but I dare not plug it in, my Logitech G25 doesn't wanna play ball either.

Just because you don't, doesn't mean everyone else doesn't

 

[DarthDudo]

If they can play new dx 11 games on 7 or 8. and all devs changed to windows 10 dx 12 min spec. all those people have to do is upgrade to windows 10. because if you can play dx11 then you can play dx 12. you just need windows 10.

So everyone with criticism's of the new OS should just shut up and upgrade so others can have there new shiny's? I'm not sure you have thought this through mate.

and no.. im not saying the equivalent of making games only run on amd at all..

What you are suggesting is exactly like that, you suggest making all titles require a product that is in the minority.

dx12 is more efficient. will let games run faster with less hardware needed. and reduced overhead "lots of good stuff"

So it would seem, time will tell how it really looks 12 months from now.

So its nothing like your comparison. a more accurate comparison would be. Its like game devs making games for xbox one only when most people still have a 360.. alienating them.. Which was the case for a while.

This is absolutely nothing like that, this is software, not a hardware difference.

But with consoles people are forced to upgrade, and they all do it..

Again, this is software not hardware, would you expect all modern titles to run 1080p@60fps at Super Ultra settings on a GTX580? Of course not, you would expect people to upgrade as needed to keep up with demands of modern games like going from X360 to XBONE.

To me it seems stupid to blame consoles for holding back gaming when pc gamers dont upgrade to the new os when its free, meaning more game devs are reluctant to change min specs to dx 12 so they can keep a larger market share..

I agree completely about not blaming consoles, however it should not be the responsibility for the consumer to conform with the demands of a company so that a minority of the consumer base can be happy.

I freely admit I am no software engineer, however from everything I have read there is no quantifiable reason why DX12 (software) cant be made to run on W7 (software) the responsibility is on that of the company making the product to make that product available, MS has not done this because they don't have to, don't blame gamer's for the actions of a multi-billion dollar corporation. (Also lets not forget how slow DX iterations have been over the years, simply because MS had no need to innovate/spend money!)

but since the release of windows 10 any game that was subsequently put in to development there is no reason for any of them that would have been dx11 not to be dx12 instead.

I know I am almost completely alone on this forum in my opinion on this, but I don't think DX12 is going to be new bastion for gaming API's that everyone thinks it is, I think it will have a pretty short life/lower adoption than many expect, this is of course only my speculation and opinion however when you look at the big picture and companies like AMD,Apple,Google,Nintendo,Sony,Valve, hell even Microsoft themselves are contributing to Vulkan,(there are many more too), I can personally see this taking over the world. Why develop a title that only works on a single platform when you can develop for many?Granted as mentioned I am no software engineer and I am sure it not quite as simple as that.

OK no more text sorry all who have decided to suffer through all this

snip

Not having a go at you mate just expressing my opinions so please don't take offense I enjoy these discussions and debates I enjoy hearing conflicting opinions so please don't be offended

 

[shambles1980]

no offense taken at all.. but i would like to point out you said my comparison of console to console was not correct because that is hardware.. when your comparison was gpu to gpu which is also hardware but you seemed to think that was valid..

The follow ing text is quite a bit longer than i intended so you can say TL;DR and i will understand lol.


i do think that dx 12 needs to be the api that all games use now (untill vulkan gets release if ever) then every one should adopt that..
but with low level hardware acces for both dx12 and vulcan it should be easier to patch games up for Vulcan support if they are dx 12 rather than 11.

the issue with open source api's is and usually has been nvidia. they dont like to support open source stuff for some reason. When it was under the guise of mantle every 1 but nvidia wanted in on the action, but nvidia just trumpeted that dx12 was better "i dont know perhaps it is, it is probably easier to code for because people are used to direct x these days"
but openGl suffered a lot from being a huge mess thanx to how it was updated over the decades leaving in redundancy.
Hopefully Vulcan will be better than that as i do hear it is being developed independantly of openGl so the inherant issues with that shouldnt be a factor with vulcan.. But i do see the same thing happening to vulcan that happend to opengl.
to many cooks do eventually spoil the broth. and trying to keep every one happy does eventually lead to the mess opengl is in these days.
back in the early 90's most games had opengl as an option. now i dont think i have a single game with it as an option.
i guess it roughly coincides with nvidia buying out voodoo but then it would also be about the time windows was making a reall dent in the market place.

Dont get me wrong i want vulkan to be the main api but i dont see it happening and if it does i dont see it lasting more than 5-6 years before its so bogged down in old redundancy code that no one wants to develop with it.
So that just leaves dx 12...
and it will make a difference maybe not as jaw dropping impressive as say a 2nd gen i5/i7 when they arrived or the arrival of an 8800 gtx back in the day.. but it will make a difference, when every call from the cpu can be answered because it has less layers to navigate to get to the gpu you really will see a difference when properly utilized. and if game devs chose to fully utilize it sli and xfire will have a huge improvment. this is the 1st api that was made with full consideration of multi gpu set ups.
it will also "if the game devs accounted for it" let you use 2x4gb gpus as 8gb of gddr rather than just 4gb we have currently.
the fact that the same data is sent to both cards with current api means hat the ram of both cards is populated with the exact same info this is not efficient at all. if dx12 is fully utilized then both cards can have different data and with the abiliity to answer a multiude more calls in the same time performance will improve.
So it really does need to be the api we use ASAP just to get every one used to it. it will take a while to get it working to its full potential. but it will be better.

as for windows 7/8 having dx12
MS initially said they would get it. then during development they seemd to say that 7 and 8 couldnt get it..
now personally i think marketing decided 7 and 8 cant get dx 12. because the lead dev said they could. I do think they will probably eek out a lower tier dx version for 7 and 8 when fully fledged higher tier dx12 cards are mainstream. this will let game devs all code for dx12 nvidia will be happy because they can sell dx 12 cards to people who dont have windows 10. and ms will be able to say if you had windows 10 you could use all the features.
the late adopters will have to pay for windows though.. new computers will come with it installed and it wont be free then either.
So in the grand scheme of things only a few will get the free windows. late adopters will have to pay. and i dont doubt you will have to pay for the large updates that would technically be windows 11 "if they didnt decide that they wont ever change the name again"

Personally..
Since MS dos i have only ever upgraded to windows to get support for the newer games. Im not saying thats right but that is how it has been. Vulcan could change it but like i said i dont see it doing that or if it does not for long. So i dont see why you wouldn't get the new os whilst you can for free.. if it was £100 then id be complaining, like i did every other windows upgrade. but i really dont see why you wouldnt upgrade now and save a £100 or so. Im lucky i have no bugs or issues my Logitech wheel works 100% fine all my peripherals do. But if i had issues and it was a case of suffer with those issues untill they fix it or pay £100 later for the os i would suffer with the issues..
the only thing that ever prevented me upgrading an os was 16 bit installers they stopped me upgrading to x64 for the longest time. but apart from software i simply HAVE to have which have no good alternatives. i don't see a single reason not to upgrade.

 

[DarthDudo]

no offense taken at all.. but i would like to point out you said my comparison of console to console was not correct because that is hardware.. when your comparison was gpu to gpu which is also hardware but you seemed to think that was valid..

The point I was making was market share, you wish for all dev's to have W10/DX12 as min requirments, however the majority of the market uses W7, I did use hardware however only in terms of market share the hardware itself was of no consideration, I hope thats clear now.

The follow ing text is quite a bit longer than i intended so you can say TL;DR and i will understand lol.

Hey you sat through mine

i do think that dx 12 needs to be the api that all games use now (untill vulkan gets release if ever) then every one should adopt that..
but with low level hardware acces for both dx12 and vulcan it should be easier to patch games up for Vulcan support if they are dx 12 rather than 11.

the issue with open source api's is and usually has been nvidia. they dont like to support open source stuff for some reason. When it was under the guise of mantle every 1 but nvidia wanted in on the action, but nvidia just trumpeted that dx12 was better

In a previous thread I linked you some videos on Vulkan, NVIDIA is behind it and even had a presentation at the conference if you like I will get the links again for you to have a watch.

but openGl suffered a lot from being a huge mess.... *snip

I cant comment on any of this as it was before my time so to speak I had relatively no interest in PC's or their hardware back then I was still on console. However Vulkan is ideed being developed outside of OpenGL.

Dont get me wrong i want vulkan to be the main api but i dont see it happening and if it does i dont see it lasting more than 5-6 years before its so bogged down in old redundancy code that no one wants to develop with it.
So that just leaves dx 12..

That's your opinion and I can see where your coming from, mine would be the direct opposite again you should have a look at some of the conference to get an idea about whats being done, its very technical and much of it above my head but the great thing about dev conferences is there is very little marketing BS.

and it will make a difference maybe not as jaw dropping impressive as say a 2nd gen i5/i7 when they arrived or the arrival of an 8800 gtx back in the day.. *snip

I am not arguing the apparent technological advantages of DX12( reading back I can see why it might seem that way but that wasn't the point I was trying to make in regard's to it being more of a marketing tool than an actual possible advancement in modern games development), my argument was that everyone should be forced to update to W10 so that the minority can get what they want,which is as I said pretty ridiculous,surely you can see that?The experience for everyone is not the same, some will tolerate quite allot for other's it been a complete s**t show, also the DX12 is here, its up to Devs now to implement as they see fit and GPU manufacturers to have the hardware to support those implementations although market adoption of the only platform to use it is imperative to this, it still wont stop the dev's who want to use it but i'm not a games developer so this is just my opinion.

now personally i think marketing decided 7 and 8 cant get dx 12. because the lead dev said they could.

I agree

I do think they will probably eek out a lower tier dx version for 7 and 8 when fully fledged higher tier dx12 cards are mainstream.

Possibly, personally I think previous windows will get the full DX12 support but again this is complete speculation on my part.

the late adopters will have to pay for windows though..

I would rather wait and see exactly what I am getting before I jump ship, I have no problem paying for it too.

Personally..
Since MS dos i have only ever upgraded to windows to get support for the newer games.

Dude games are the ONLY reason I use windows, don't be sorry you find it's useful and convenient, I'd just personally wait and see.

Vulcan could change it but like i said i dont see it doing that or if it does not for long.

Would you mind elaborating on this point for me, I'd love to know why you think it wont last, or is it, as you already mentioned, a case of "too many cooks spoil the broth"?

So i dont see why you wouldn't get the new os whilst you can for free.. if it was £100 then id be complaining, like i did every other windows upgrade. but i really dont see why you wouldnt upgrade now and save a £100 or so.

I wont update because I have no guarentees of how MS will approach it in the future, will there be more and more placed advertisements in the OS (I really dont mind that too much) will they charge for DX incrementations?i.e. you dont play games so you dont need DX but you do use Adobe etc so you need to pay for .NET Framework etc "You like games?Get DX13 for only 12.99 a month or £100 for the year!Invite friends for bonuses!!!"

Until I do know exactly what is happening I'll stick with what I have, again I don't mind paying once I know what I am getting.

Im lucky i have no bugs or issues my Logitech wheel works 100% fine all my peripherals do. But if i had issues and it was a case of suffer with those issues untill they fix it or pay £100 later for the os i would suffer with the issues..

At least by then all the issues will be known and I can make an informed decision.

i don't see a single reason not to upgrade.

I think I have give you more than 1 reason why I wont update but that's just me, only reason I use windows is for gaming, I don't do anything else that I couldn't do on Linux for completely free with no hassle, most software I use is either game related or system monitoring I use very little else, so for me I see no reason to update until some really compelling titles that implement DX12 come along, I have no problem with people updating, none whatsoever to each their own and all that liberal crap, my criticism is that you expect everyone else to update so that dev's may or may not develop for DX12, also you keep saying W10 is free, which technically is true however its not entirely the case and who knows for how long it will remain in its current business model.

 

[NeverBackDown]

I'm surprised if anything that W8 users aren't moving onto W10 faster. I figured that would have hit 0 by now with all that hate it gets

 

[barnsley]

I'm surprised if anything that W8 users aren't moving onto W10 faster. I figured that would have hit 0 by now with all that hate it gets

Its because people hopefully realized you can install a start button that makes it work really well. I'm happy to admit that 8.1 has -so far- been the best operating system I've ever had (since installing the start button). Its a much nicer tool than the one in 10 IMO.

 

[JR23]

I'm surprised if anything that W8 users aren't moving onto W10 faster. I figured that would have hit 0 by now with all that hate it gets

Its because people hopefully realized you can install a start button that makes it work really well. I'm happy to admit that 8.1 has -so far- been the best operating system I've ever had (since installing the start button). Its a much nicer tool than the one in 10 IMO.

I like W8 without a start button. I was disappointed when 10 didn't have metro thing. Personally I think they went with the wrong compromise. Metro and no 'apps' would have been ideal rather than a start menu IMO.

JR

 

[S.T.A.L.K.E.R]

Windows 10 pro x64 fully updated on my second hdd..system is still glitchy,slow,and it is spyware...when something is free,customer is a product..Bill Gates Devil in disguise...W10Privacy great program to disable spying it helps try it guys...

 

[shambles1980]

well historically open source api suffers because it is open source so ppl add this to do that then add this to do this. and it all gets buried deep in the code. after a while some of those things wont ever be used again. but its buried so deep you cant remove it. it gets horrible to code for..
technically openGL right now could give you dx11 quality games but its so garbled no one wants to develop for it. And i see the same thing happening to vulcan.

It really is to many cooks spoil the broth.. to start it one cook is making a nice simple pea soup. then some one else says ooh add a bit of salt.. then some one says know what goes well with that? carrots. then some one adds some meat chunks. some one else adds oregano, then some one adds garlic. then you come to have a bowl of soup and most people dont want to deal with a oregano garlic meat carrot and pea soup.
Which is what open source api usually ends up like.
You can get the bits you need to do what you want, but its not as straight forward.

 

[xnax2802]

I like W8 without a start button. I was disappointed when 10 didn't have metro thing. Personally I think they went with the wrong compromise. Metro and no 'apps' would have been ideal rather than a start menu IMO.

JR

You've got to be the first person I've heard/seen talk about Metro as a good thing on desktop PCs I personally hate the idea, as I like my desktop and I wanna have pretty pistures to look at, when not in full screen

Windows 10 pro x64 fully updated on my second hdd..system is still glitchy,slow,and it is spyware...when something is free,customer is a product..Bill Gates Devil in disguise...W10Privacy great program to disable spying it helps try it guys...

7 and 8 has the same privacy "issues" as 10, though, and I'm pretty sure that Bill Gates has nothing to do with any of it..

 

[Doomslayer]

I'm surprised if anything that W8 users aren't moving onto W10 faster. I figured that would have hit 0 by now with all that hate it gets

Nope cause most of the people who are on 8.1 are happy with 8.1

Its because people hopefully realized you can install a start button that makes it work really well. I'm happy to admit that 8.1 has -so far- been the best operating system I've ever had (since installing the start button). Its a much nicer tool than the one in 10 IMO.

Yep cause you can make the start menu look like Windows 7, I downgraded from Windows 10 back to Windows 7 but now i'm starting to think i want to give Windows 8.1 another go, the UI from Windows 7 looks a bit dated now compare to Windows 8.1 my point of view is might be backwards to some people Windows 8.1 is like a combo of Windows 7 & Windows 10.

The only reason why i downgraded from Windows 10 back to Windows 7 is to have control over the Windows Updates you can not do that in Windows 10 unless you have the Enterprise version.

 

[NeverBackDown]

Its because people hopefully realized you can install a start button that makes it work really well. I'm happy to admit that 8.1 has -so far- been the best operating system I've ever had (since installing the start button). Its a much nicer tool than the one in 10 IMO.

I like W8 without a start button. I was disappointed when 10 didn't have metro thing. Personally I think they went with the wrong compromise. Metro and no 'apps' would have been ideal rather than a start menu IMO.

JR

I hated W8/8.1. Especially when using my parents Surface Pro 3. While it worked well since it was touch ever since i upgraded them to W10 they love it far more than they did with 8. Me personally I like it better as well whenever I use it to help them out. It's just far more fluid. On the other hand my sister's laptop with 8.1(non-touch) was ok. Still hated the metro tiles. I know my sister always got confused on what she was doing. Now that it's W10 she doesn't even ask for my help anymore, so I'm assuming she likes it much better. Honestly this is how most people will view W10 compared to 8. Sure you may think 8 was great(that rhymed lol) but for the average consumer, which let's face it is 90% of Windows people, 10 is a more turn and go solution.

Also you can even customize the 10 start button too, so no reason not to upgrade imo

 

[Doomslayer]

I hated W8/8.1. Especially when using my parents Surface Pro 3. While it worked well since it was touch ever since i upgraded them to W10 they love it far more than they did with 8. Me personally I like it better as well whenever I use it to help them out. It's just far more fluid. On the other hand my sister's laptop with 8.1(non-touch) was ok. Still hated the metro tiles. I know my sister always got confused on what she was doing. Now that it's W10 she doesn't even ask for my help anymore, so I'm assuming she likes it much better. Honestly this is how most people will view W10 compared to 8. Sure you may think 8 was great(that rhymed lol) but for the average consumer, which let's face it is 90% of Windows people, 10 is a more turn and go solution.

Also you can even customize the 10 start button too, so no reason not to upgrade imo

You can remove the Metro UI in Windows 8/8.1 bye installing StartisBack or Classic Shell you can remove those apps as well, One of the main reasons why i don't lioke Windows 10 is cause you have no control of Windows Updates unless you have the Enterprise version, A lot of people are getting annoyed bye the fact that you can't control the updates in Windows 10.

 

[NeverBackDown]

You can remove the Metro UI in Windows 8/8.1 bye installing StartisBack or Classic Shell you can remove those apps as well, One of the main reasons why i don't lioke Windows 10 is cause you have no control of Windows Updates unless you have the Enterprise version, A lot of people are getting annoyed bye the fact that you can't control the updates in Windows 10.

You can still do all that in 10.
You can control the updates btw. With or without the Pro version you can just disable it(pro version) and then when you want to run it manually(both). I have the Pro version so i just defer updates constantly. Honestly though I only do it for the graphics drivers. Other than that eveything should automatically update.. it's the best way to keep security higher on windows. Ain't no big deal outside of Business cases.

 

[Doomslayer]

You can still do all that in 10.
You can control the updates btw. With or without the Pro version you can just disable it(pro version) and then when you want to run it manually(both). I have the Pro version so i just defer updates constantly. Honestly though I only do it for the graphics drivers. Other than that eveything should automatically update.. it's the best way to keep security higher on windows. Ain't no big deal outside of Business cases.

When i was using Windows 10 i couldn't change the updates to manual unless they release an update, i have also read om other forums that people couldn't set it manually either. I could only see 2 options nothing about manually.

Maybe it has something to do with an OEM copy.