Audio Upgrade....STX/D2X/Phoebus??

[sn8kedr]

Hi all,

I am by no means an audiophile and help is very much needed. I have a couple of questions to pose to those more knowledgeable than me.

My current audio setup is Asus Maximus VI Formula on-board audio and a Steelseries 7H Pro gaming headset + Edifier C2XD 2.1 speakers. My main usage at the moment is 60% gaming with the headset and 40% watching movies (mix between the 2.1's and the headset).

Firstly what I wanted to know is will this setup benefit significantly from a dedicated sound card compared the Formula's on-board audio? (i'm aware that most people automatically advise that any dedicated sound card is better than on board - however given what seems to be a significant improvement of mobo's audio these days does it still hold true with the formula VI?)

Secondly, if I would benefit from a dedicated sound card should I consider upgrading the headset to something that would take advantage of the dedicated sound cards potential?

The bottom line is I am willing to drop around $500 on a audio upgrade and am still happy with my existing audio setup but can't help but feel I could be getting a much better experience with some dedicated gear. The main cards I have been eyeing off are the Assus Xonar STX/D2X/Phoebus.

Any help would be great guys. Cheers.

 

[jamesriley94]

If you're wanting to do this, the STX should be your only choice really.

The Phoebus just isn't as good, and the D2X lacks a headphone amp which IMO is one of the main reason to be buying a soundcard these days.

However, with your current headset, I don't see that much of a point in upgrading. You will experience a better sound quality with the STX and the headset, but it isn't really what the STX is built for, so you would be better off upgrading those too.

You could always buy the STX and see what you think, and then decide from there if you want to go the extra mile and buy some proper headphones. You may think the 7Hs sound good on the STX, but a proper pair of headphones would be significantly better.

Look at some of the Beyerdynamic ranges - DT770/DT880/DT990, or ATH-M50s, or there's a few Sennheiser sets around the HD558 that may be good for you too.

 

[sn8kedr]

If you're wanting to do this, the STX should be your only choice really.

The Phoebus just isn't as good, and the D2X lacks a headphone amp which IMO is one of the main reason to be buying a soundcard these days.

However, with your current headset, I don't see that much of a point in upgrading. You will experience a better sound quality with the STX and the headset, but it isn't really what the STX is built for, so you would be better off upgrading those too.

You could always buy the STX and see what you think, and then decide from there if you want to go the extra mile and buy some proper headphones. You may think the 7Hs sound good on the STX, but a proper pair of headphones would be significantly better.

Look at some of the Beyerdynamic ranges - DT770/DT880/DT990, or ATH-M50s, or there's a few Sennheiser sets around the HD558 that may be good for you too.

Sounds like a good plan mate - I was actually looking at getting a combo of the STX and DT880's earlier today....but I might see how the STX goes first.

Should I decide to head towards the decent headphones, say the DT880's, is there any versions I should be looking for (just thinking that some of the models of headphones I have seen seem to have varying Ohm categories)?

 

[cuylar]

WHOA.... hold on...

You have the Maximus IV Formula.... This board: http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/MAXIMUS_VI_FORMULA/

Correct?

You aren't going to gain anything from any of the Xonar boards or Creative boards based on what you have in your post.

What are you really looking for that you feel you are not getting right now?

• Better sound?
• Less interference?
• Positional audio for gaming? Which games?
• Better SnR?

The onboard audio (SupremeFX) that you have is pretty amazing.

The ONLY benefit you will get from the STX would be the ability to change amps on your board and a tiny bit more shielding.... the shielding shouldn't be a huge issue anyways. (compared to what you have)

This is what you have already....

Down the line... here's what you have...

SupremeFX - XonarSTX

• Processor 192KHz/24bit *SAME*
• SnR 120db vs. 124db *MARGINAL*
• Headphone amplifier 600ohm *SAME* (TI TPA6120A2)
• Premium ELNA audio capacitors vs. Nichicon "Fine Gold" professional audio capacitors *MARGINAL*
• Fixed vs. Swappable OPA Sockets... Pointless for your application. Also, if done incorrectly or poorly it could seriously degrade your audio.

I'd challenge ANYONE to put on a pair of Sennheiser HD650 headphones and be able to tell which is which in a blind test. (You won't be able to)

So back to the original question.... You have $500 to spend, what do you want to get out of it?

I don't mean to come in an undercut jamesriley94 rudely (especially given his position on the boards here) but there is NO measurable benefit for you to upgrade to a sound card based on what you are saying about yourself. I can't, for the life of me, understand that recommendation.

Personally, I'm partial to Sennheiser... but Beyerdynamic makes good headphones too...

One thing I'm wondering with the headphones... Do you chat while gaming? Would you benefit from something like a headset... maybe: http://en-us.sennheiser.com/g4me-one

Or, are you looking to use a boom mic?

A little more info on what you want to gain and how you game/watch movies would help me make a recommendation.

 

[iBeInspire]

Just a quick chime in to say that when it comes to sound output quality, specs mean next to nothing and it's all in the way the hardware sounds

 

[Lazlo]

Just a quick chime in to say that when it comes to sound output quality, specs mean next to nothing and it's all in the way the hardware sounds

TBH I'm not exactly sure if you are serious or if you are being ironic. But cuylar's arguments are pretty solid in my book. Espsecially considering both have the same DAC and headphone amp.

 

[cuylar]

Just a quick chime in to say that when it comes to sound output quality, specs mean next to nothing and it's all in the way the hardware sounds

That's my point. The same headphone amplifier is used in both devices. The hardware driving the audio is the same.

Caps are of similar quality and the processor (which is digital) is for the same output)

You can make an argument that there are better jacks on the card than on the board but that's not likely to make a difference unless there is some fault or damage to either.

As previously stated, the OP is not an audiophile and I can't see the benefit for an upgrade.

Without knowing the real reason driving him, we can't possibly advise on a product.

 

[jamesriley94]

Granted onboard sound chips has progressed significantly in recent years but in terms of shielding, despite being separated in a different PCB layer, they still don't provide close to the kind of EMI protection the STX does.

That, coupled with the marginally poorer DAC on the motherboard would actually make the differences quite a lot more noticeable, especially at higher volume levels.

As said, the specs can't really be compared that well at all. They can be set up differently and tuned more precisely depending on the intended use. As the Maximus is intended more for gaming use, I would imagine to an extent that it has slightly more enhanced bass levels, although without actually using one I couldn't really say for sure.

I'll also mention the power delivery differences. Despite the EMI shielding, the power circuitry does have to go significantly further on any motherboard in order to get the power to the chip/DAC/amp. This will still pick up interference from nearby components and will detract from the overall audio quality. On the other hand the STX is better shielded and the circuitry is more precise in delivering the power. This will result in a cleaner sound, especially at higher volumes or powering higher impedance headphones.

I would be confident actually in discerning the differences between the onboard audio and the STX. At higher volumes the onboard solution just wouldn't be capable of minimising white noise to the same extent of the STX.

However, I will agree that purely using this for gaming and films won't be that noticeable.

I will also add in regards to headphone amplifiers; doesn't the STX use multiple headphone amps? I would imagine that this does add to quality as opposed to running through just the single one on the motherboard?

I agree that they may be relatively close, but the STX is still a better solution overall, despite using similar components. Whether the OP thinks it's worth the extra cost is another question though.

 

[cuylar]

Granted onboard sound chips has progressed significantly in recent years but in terms of shielding, despite being separated in a different PCB layer, they still don't provide close to the kind of EMI protection the STX does.

That, coupled with the marginally poorer DAC on the motherboard would actually make the differences quite a lot more noticeable, especially at higher volume levels.

As said, the specs can't really be compared that well at all. They can be set up differently and tuned more precisely depending on the intended use. As the Maximus is intended more for gaming use, I would imagine to an extent that it has slightly more enhanced bass levels, although without actually using one I couldn't really say for sure.

I'll also mention the power delivery differences. Despite the EMI shielding, the power circuitry does have to go significantly further on any motherboard in order to get the power to the chip/DAC/amp. This will still pick up interference from nearby components and will detract from the overall audio quality. On the other hand the STX is better shielded and the circuitry is more precise in delivering the power. This will result in a cleaner sound, especially at higher volumes or powering higher impedance headphones.

I would be confident actually in discerning the differences between the onboard audio and the STX. At higher volumes the onboard solution just wouldn't be capable of minimising white noise to the same extent of the STX.

However, I will agree that purely using this for gaming and films won't be that noticeable.

I will also add in regards to headphone amplifiers; doesn't the STX use multiple headphone amps? I would imagine that this does add to quality as opposed to running through just the single one on the motherboard?

I agree that they may be relatively close, but the STX is still a better solution overall, despite using similar components. Whether the OP thinks it's worth the extra cost is another question though.

I'm not just looking for an argument or trying to assert being "right"... this topic isn't that simple.... hat being said some issues/points I would state we disagree on...

• I don't think that onboard audio as a whole is improving significantly. What I am seeing is that for certain motherboards, a great deal of research and development has gone into truly building a separate sound card on the board itself. While they are connected, they are separate units as far as the circuitry is concerned.
• I'm not sure exactly how much more EMI is being shielded with the STX... or if more is actually being shielded at all. I do know that physically there isn't any criss-cross of datapaths on the botherboard and there isn't going to be any on the PCIe option either. The processor for both is covered with a shield... There is a copper divider in the STX but that isn't extremely substantial.... or at least to the point where it would invalidate the onboard side of the argument. Besides.... the ROG Armor would work as an EMI shield as well.
• I'm looking for the exact part number for the caps on the Formula but I do know that the FG caps on the STX are not the premium line from Nichicon... that'd be the KZ series. http://www.mouser.com/pdfdocs/NichiconFGaudiocapsdatasheet.pdf
• If anyone can get me the part number for the caps on the supremeFX caps I'd be hapy to go over the differences. To be fair...the marginal difference was not to suggest the STX has better caps.... just that the difference wouldn't be noticeable. If they are the high end caps from ELNA, they could be actually "better".
• The use of multiple amps is for tone in the audio. The true audiophiles claim (I can't) they can hear a level of richness. Some people mod this card with crazy amps... (crazy is subjective) like this: http://bursonaudio.com/asus-xonar-stx-sound-card-upgraded-with-burson-opamps/
• This is where I got my info on the apm which is used in both devices: http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tpa6120a2.pdf

I would wrap this up by stating that I don't think the Xonar is a "better" option... I'd call it a niche option when compared to the supremefx.

Sound cards seem to be more of an upgrade from basic onboard audio than in this case.

IMO, both options are great but I don't believe there is a measurable benefit in this case.

 

[sn8kedr]

Yup. Its the correct mobo: Formula VI.

Im glad this is generating some discussions and I'm interested to see exactly how this unfolds.

As for what I want to get out of this.....i really just want to ensure I'm getting the best audio experience (for my untrained ears) I can for gaming, movies and some moderate music listening. To facilitate this I would be willing to spend some cash if it would make a difference. I wasn't aware that the STX and SupremeFX were so closely matched for specs on paper. I have had a number of other people suggest that regardless the STX os superior but I just cant see myself being able to discern the difference. At the end of the day though I have ordered the STX since I have a friend who will buy it from should I not want it.

I'll post back next week once I've installed and had a play and see if I can hear any significant differences since I haven't come across anyone with this exact setup yet.

 

[Lazlo]

I'll also mention the power delivery differences. Despite the EMI shielding, the power circuitry does have to go significantly further on any motherboard in order to get the power to the chip/DAC/amp. This will still pick up interference from nearby components and will detract from the overall audio quality. On the other hand the STX is better shielded and the circuitry is more precise in delivering the power. This will result in a cleaner sound, especially at higher volumes or powering higher impedance headphones.

I would be confident actually in discerning the differences between the onboard audio and the STX. At higher volumes the onboard solution just wouldn't be capable of minimising white noise to the same extent of the STX.

That's what the SnR rating is for. On paper the difference is 120db vs 124db. That's 4db although that might be noticeable, I would guess you would have to turn them up really good. Good bye to your hearing!
The difference becomes even less important if you use high impedance headphones.
Would I pay 160€ for that slight difference. Nope! And that's not to take anything away from the stx, which is definitely a very good card.

 

[jamesriley94]

That's what the SnR rating is for. On paper the difference is 120db vs 124db. That's 4db although that might be noticeable, I would guess you would have to turn them up really good. Good bye to your hearing!
The difference becomes even less important if you use high impedance headphones.
Would I pay 160€ for that slight difference. Nope! And that's not to take anything away from the stx, which is definitely a very good card.

Decibels aren't a linear measurement. 110dB is twice the volume/noise of 100dB, so the 4dB difference you mention is actually a lot more than it appears.

As for the headphone point, the higher impedance headphones mean that unamplified white noise picked up along the way doesn't get through doesn't it? If white noise goes through the amplifier then it's still picked up just the same through headphones.

We can argue all day about specs on paper, and without having each of them to hand it's impossible to say just how big of a difference it is.

 

[SuB]

isn't it 3db = double the volume? (logarithmic scale)

Actually, went looking, found this.

A change in power by a factor of 10 is a 10 dB change in level. A change in power by a factor of two is approximately a 3 dB change. A change in voltage by a factor of 10 is equivalent to a change in power by a factor of 100 and is thus a 20 dB change.

So yeah 4dB is a BIG difference.

I have to say the posts that say "Don't compare specs" are the most accurate, you can have 2 identically specced audio systems on paper and they can sound VERY *VERY* different.

Personally for me, on-board sound just doesn't cut the mustard, regardless of the 'spec' list. You always seem to get more noise from onboard, shielded or otherwise. A discreet option just works, you can transfer it from rig-to-rig and not have to worry about the sound quality/warmth/character/attenuation etc etc etc changing because you have your output defined by the card, not the motherboard.

It's like finding a mouse or keyboard you like, why change when you're comfortable with it and you're used to it ?

Sound is such a personal experience, everyone enjoys different things, this is why you'll never find me recommending bass-heavy cans, I like snappy punchy clear bass, not slow and/or overemphasised or muddy bass. So I picked AKG's for my cans. Took a long time to find them but I wouldn't change em The sound stage, in my opinion (cannot make this part of this clear enough), is second to none for gaming and competitive FPS

 

[Lazlo]

"The concepts of signal-to-noise ratio and dynamic range are closely related. Dynamic range measures the ratio between the strongest un-distorted signal on a channel and the minimum discernable signal, which for most purposes is the noise level. SNR measures the ratio between an arbitrary signal level (not necessarily the most powerful signal possible) and noise. Measuring signal-to-noise ratios requires the selection of a representative or reference signal. In audio egineering, the reference signal is usually a sine wave at a standardized nominal or alignment level, such as 1 kHz at +4 dbu (1.228 VRMS).
SNR is usually taken to indicate an average signal-to-noise ratio, as it is possible that (near) instantaneous signal-to-noise ratios will be considerably different. The concept can be understood as normalizing the noise level to 1 (0 dB) and measuring how far the signal 'stands out'." (from Wikipedia)


Lets elaborate. With the Formula onboard Solution you start to hear noise at 120 Dezibel with the stx you start to hear noise at 124 dezibel.


So a starting Jetplane is about 120 Dezibels. Nah, still not worth 160 € to me, if a have to destroy my ears to hear a differnce in the noise department.


If somebody prefers the sounddesign of the stx so much over the onboard solution of this board, that he wants to spend that much money, I won't stand in his way. But I would not recommend it to somebody else.


We'll see what the OP says when compared the two.

 

[sn8kedr]

alirighty then, the STX has arrived and I'll be installing it tomorrow to see how it goes with my existing headset. Couple of things I wanted to clarify when setting it all up:

Should I disable the onboard HD Audio feature in the bios first?

Should I uninstall the ROG HD Audio software as well?

Is it worth while connecting up the front panel audio connectors to the STX also? (wasn't sure if this would degrade the audio quality if I decided to hookup the headphones to the front panel audio - no that I would but just curious)

 

[looz]

You can still keep the on-board enabled, it could for example be used for speakers, while xonar is playing audio via headphones.

Do what you want with front panel audio, keep in mind that running a wire carrying an analogue signal through the insides of the computer means that it is prone to interference, and using it isn't really recommended.

 

[SuB]

You can still keep the on-board enabled, it could for example be used for speakers, while xonar is playing audio via headphones.

Do what you want with front panel audio, keep in mind that running a wire carrying an analogue signal through the insides of the computer means that it is prone to interference, and using it isn't really recommended.

Err no you can't, at least not the last time I checked... Even if you can I would highly recommend against leaving any other audio output enabled.

I'd uninstall everything you're not using fella, helps ALOT with conflicts and compatibility etc...

And you can connect to the front panel if you want, you might as well. The STX has outputs for cans and speakers and you have the option in the software to switch your output.

 

[sn8kedr]

Cheers lads, I'd rather this all goes as smooth as possible so I'll disable onboard and remove the ROG audio software just to be on the safe side. Hanging out to test this out now and a mate of mine has dt880's (250ohm) so gonna try them out later this week, if all goes well I might grab a pair form amazon!

 

[SuB]

prepare your ears you're gonna love it dude

 

[sn8kedr]

Well - I chucked in the STX today, gave it a spin with my average steelseries headset and the stock Asus Audio Center drivers.......and dayum. I wasn't expecting this much of a difference. Some of the music I'm listening too sounds a noticeable amount clearer with more depth than I thought I could get. My 2.1's have more punch and seemingly more volume.

As I mentioned before I am a complete noob to the audio scene, however even my untrained ears can pick the difference in the already good on board sound from the Maixumus VI Formula the STX. Very impressed and I still have the DT880's to come

Gaming wise I've only noticed a marginal difference however I'm still toying with the settings and trying to find a mix that I like.

Has anyone used/recommends the unified drivers for the Xonar's?