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  #1  
Old 09-06-21, 01:14 PM
jbonnett jbonnett is offline
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Question Are Nvidia and AMD price fixing again?

Hi All,
Before you dismiss the tittle please have a little read into what I am about to say and please note that I actually got the card that I want (3080 Ti).

We all know that Nvidia and AMD have price fixed in the past plus we all know there is a chip shortage. That being said, car sales haven't been impacted as much as we are lead to believe (I have a friend that works in car sales).

Yet you see there is loads of demand for GPUs on either side, CPU stock has bounced back, I imagine this is due to Intel always having stock forcing AMD to gain stock quickly.
GPUs on the other hand there is a little trend that I have noticed, when it is close to a new GPU release the previous ones are being sold with loads of stock.

My REAL WORLD EXAMPLE here is the release of the 3070 Ti tomorrow and yet I see loads of site suddenly having stock of 3060s at an inflated price, see images:




This can't be a coincidence due to it happening every time. Plus this is the time the cards lose some of there value.

It's just giving me 2018 RAM price fixing vibes.

Please tell me I am wrong!

Thanks for indulging me on my take!
Jamie

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  #2  
Old 09-06-21, 01:34 PM
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WYP WYP is offline
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It isn't AMD or Nvidia that is boosting the prices. They sell the silicon and sell their own cards at MSRP.

There are two sides to the retail scalping, AIBs with overly expensive models and retailers who are taking the mick with pricing.

The car analogy isn't too relevant, as car chips don't tend to be competing for leading-edge lithography nodes. It doesn't matter what nodes their products use, and governments have stepped in to ensure that that market gets priority access.

Nvidia's RTX 3070 Ti is Nvidia's way of selling effectively the same chips at higher prices to their AIB partners. That's Nvidia taking advantage of the situation. Otherwise, their chips have a set cost for their customers.

The CPU market has normalised as it is not in a super high demand situation. CPUs aren't as in demand as GPUs, and CPUs are getting the bulk of AMD's 7nm silicon allocation between Ryzen, Ryzen Mobile and EPYC.

Console manufacturers are facing the same issues. 7nm demand is high and they can't make enough chips to meet demand. That's why we can't get a PS5 or Xbox Series X consoles easily.

Covid has created a tonne of demand for these products, as has the draw for next-generation gaming experiences.
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Old 09-06-21, 02:06 PM
jbonnett jbonnett is offline
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Originally Posted by WYP View Post
It isn't AMD or Nvidia that is boosting the prices. They sell the silicon and sell their own cards at MSRP.

There are two sides to the retail scalping, AIBs with overly expensive models and retailers who are taking the mick with pricing.

The car analogy isn't too relevant, as car chips don't tend to be competing for leading-edge lithography nodes. It doesn't matter what nodes their products use, and governments have stepped in to ensure that that market gets priority access.

Nvidia's RTX 3070 Ti is Nvidia's way of selling effectively the same chips at higher prices to their AIB partners. That's Nvidia taking advantage of the situation. Otherwise, their chips have a set cost for their customers.

The CPU market has normalised as it is not in a super high demand situation. CPUs aren't as in demand as GPUs, and CPUs are getting the bulk of AMD's 7nm silicon allocation between Ryzen, Ryzen Mobile and EPYC.

Console manufacturers are facing the same issues. 7nm demand is high and they can't make enough chips to meet demand. That's why we can't get a PS5 or Xbox Series X consoles easily.

Covid has created a tonne of demand for these products, as has the draw for next-generation gaming experiences.
To be fair it's more the retail that I was getting at, though Nvidia and AMD can control that though choose not to.

CPUs are most certainly in demand, I have no idea how you can say otherwise.

That is assuming that car chips haven't moved on from legacy chips in there latest models.

Not only that the market isn't being treated in the right way, the market is targeted at gamers, though mining and professionals like videographers and machine learning .etc are also buying up these cards, but rather than treating them as a separate market they keep allowing them to overlap which is indeed a form of price fixing as the demand for one rises the demand all. Gamers will be a far lower demand than the other markets, pricing them out.

That will just kill PC gaming off. Why build a PC when you can buy a console for around £500 with the same power or more than the low to mid tier range GPUs when said GPUs are around £800, not only that you have to have a decent PC to put that card in, which inflates that cost to more like £1600+.
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  #4  
Old 09-06-21, 02:26 PM
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WYP WYP is offline
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Originally Posted by jbonnett View Post
To be fair it's more the retail that I was getting at, though Nvidia and AMD can control that though choose not to.

CPUs are most certainly in demand, I have no idea how you can say otherwise.

That is assuming that car chips haven't moved on from legacy chips in there latest models.

Not only that the market isn't being treated in the right way, the market is targeted at gamers, though mining and professionals like videographers and machine learning .etc are also buying up these cards, but rather than treating them as a separate market they keep allowing them to overlap which is indeed a form of price fixing as the demand for one rises the demand all. Gamers will be a far lower demand than the other markets, pricing them out.

That will just kill PC gaming off. Why build a PC when you can buy a console for around £500 with the same power or more than the low to mid tier range GPUs when said GPUs are around £800, not only that you have to have a decent PC to put that card in, which inflates that cost to more like £1600+.
Nvidia/AMD cannot force pricing on retailers. That is, by definition, price fixing. People can charge what they like for products. Your post title is about AMD/NV price fixing, which I have already stated is not the case.

As far as cars go, no, they do not need leading-edge lithography. Outside of self-driving/assisted driving cars, not much compute power is required in that market. For the most part, carmakers can use older nodes.

As far as your point regarding Videographers, professionals and miners go, Nvidia markets to creatives a lot. GPUs are general-purpose computational products, and people can use them for whatever they like. Same with CPUs.

While CPUs are in demand, they are not as in demand as GPUs. There is a reason Intel made less money last quarter than the prior quarter (IIRC). If there was a real shortage there, Intel would still be laughing all the way to the bank.
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Old 09-06-21, 02:51 PM
jbonnett jbonnett is offline
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Originally Posted by WYP View Post
Nvidia/AMD cannot force pricing on retailers. That is, by definition, price fixing. People can charge what they like for products. Your post title is about AMD/NV price fixing, which I have already stated is not the case.

As far as cars go, no, they do not need leading-edge lithography. Outside of self-driving/assisted driving cars, not much compute power is required in that market. For the most part, carmakers can use older nodes.

As far as your point regarding Videographers, professionals and miners go, Nvidia markets to creatives a lot. GPUs are general-purpose computational products, and people can use them for whatever they like. Same with CPUs.

While CPUs are in demand, they are not as in demand as GPUs. There is a reason Intel made less money last quarter than the prior quarter (IIRC). If there was a real shortage there, Intel would still be laughing all the way to the bank.
No I think you missed my point with setting the price, I mean setting the margin, not the dead price. Apple sets a margin on the products that they sell. It's not price fixing but creating a better market by not allowing retailers from setting sky high prices at demand by stock piling. Apple started doing that with the iPhones because that is where it started with the retailers for them. Why do you think that you pretty much see the same prices for Apple products everywhere!?
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Old 09-06-21, 04:29 PM
Warchild Warchild is offline
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Originally Posted by jbonnett View Post
No I think you missed my point with setting the price, I mean setting the margin, not the dead price. Apple sets a margin on the products that they sell. It's not price fixing but creating a better market by not allowing retailers from setting sky high prices at demand by stock piling. Apple started doing that with the iPhones because that is where it started with the retailers for them. Why do you think that you pretty much see the same prices for Apple products everywhere!?
Again no. Its not AMD or Nvidia. Its retailers and e-tailers doing that.

Once the release is set, Nv/AMD set their MSRP and announce it to the world. Then its pretty much set in stone to some extent. What goes on after that is down to the market. As it is now, people who are paying this inflated price for a 3080ti are just literally destroying the market themselves. They justify that companies can sell what they want for whatever price they ask. Someone is always going to come along with zero will power and just purchase one.

Apple same price everywhere? err no. I often bought apple products 50% cheaper than Norway by getting them from USA on my business trips. Always had a shopping list for people wanting one.


It might be the best on the market, but its literally the worst value card for years. Its practically a 3080 with extra memory with very little performance increase and a £700 markup? gimme a break.
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Old 09-06-21, 04:35 PM
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WYP WYP is offline
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Originally Posted by jbonnett View Post
No I think you missed my point with setting the price, I mean setting the margin, not the dead price. Apple sets a margin on the products that they sell. It's not price fixing but creating a better market by not allowing retailers from setting sky high prices at demand by stock piling. Apple started doing that with the iPhones because that is where it started with the retailers for them. Why do you think that you pretty much see the same prices for Apple products everywhere!?
Apple can do that because they are the only supplier of their product. If retailers took the mick, they would never deal with them again. They also sell from their website at the correct price. Apple's too big for any phone providers to mess with that. They will take their margin and be happy.

With GPUs Nvidia controls the cost of their Founders Edition models. They only deal with those who will sell them at MSRP. If any retailer sold for higher, that retailer would have a storm heading their way.

For the control that you want to see, all of the Nvidia and AMD partners would need to enact the same system. Even then, their MSRPs will vary, as AIBs set the MSRPs of their own cards, not AMD or Nvidia.

The MSRPs that you get from AMD and Nvidia are nonsense anyway, as any add-on that's worth anything on the AIB cards will bump the price up. What AMD and Nvidia promise are the "minimum price", and those prices often come with thin margins for retailers and AIBs.

I can go on and on, but there is no easy fix solution to this. What you are proposing is fundamental shifts in how a lot of the components retail/supply chain operate. Even then, that does nothing to counter the impact of a shortage. eBay/Facebook marketplace scalpers will still exist.
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Old 09-06-21, 04:37 PM
Warchild Warchild is offline
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Originally Posted by WYP View Post
Apple can do that because they are the only supplier of their product. If retailers took the mick, they would never deal with them again. They also sell from their website at the correct price. Apple's too big for any phone providers to mess with that. They will take their margin and be happy.

With GPUs Nvidia controls the cost of their Founders Edition models. They only deal with those who will sell them at MSRP. If any retailer sold for higher, that retailer would have a storm heading their way.

For the control that you want to see, all of the Nvidia and AMD partners would need to enact the same system. Even then, their MSRPs will vary, as AIBs set the MSRPs of their own cards, not AMD or Nvidia.

The MSRPs that you get from AMD and Nvidia are nonsense anyway, as any add-on that's worth anything on the AIB cards will bump the price up. What AMD and Nvidia promise are the "minimum price", and those prices often come with thin margins for retailers and AIBs.

I can go on and on, but there is no easy fix solution to this. What you are proposing is fundamental shifts in how a lot of the components retail/supply chain operate. Even then, that does nothing to counter the impact of a shortage. eBay/Facebook marketplace scalpers will still exist.
It will never end as long as foolish people continue to pay the price they ask for products. It's the age of WANT over NEED. And its ruining the world.
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  #9  
Old 09-06-21, 04:40 PM
NeverBackDown NeverBackDown is offline
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Originally Posted by jbonnett View Post
No I think you missed my point with setting the price, I mean setting the margin, not the dead price. Apple sets a margin on the products that they sell. It's not price fixing but creating a better market by not allowing retailers from setting sky high prices at demand by stock piling. Apple started doing that with the iPhones because that is where it started with the retailers for them. Why do you think that you pretty much see the same prices for Apple products everywhere!?
Apple is a tier 1 customer of TSMC and as such gets earliest access to their latest technology and therefore earliest orders in. Apple put in their order for all their products at least 12 months in advance. TSMC is contractually obligated to meet their demand. They therefore already taped out their entire production line to fulfill that demand. So everyone else must use that remaining production capacity leftover from all the tier 1 customers.

Nvidia, MS, Sony, AMD, etc must fight over 7nm alongside many phone suppliers too.


As for your car analogy earlier, they don't use 7nm and TSMC doesn't supply them. Global Foundry does and other smaller unknown foundries because they don't really need more than 14nm. Heck I believe Ford even mentioned them using 40nm for their computer chips.
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