Why RTX?
- Thread starter Avet
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BigDaddyKong
Active member
The problem is you need working software when you put out new tech. What did launch shortly after was a poor example and it took a while for patches to get it working at an acceptable level.
It also hurts when they come down from the high of mining shipping everything you can product to loosing half your business almost overnight. When your a publicly traded company, you can't go from record profits overnight to half you business. Their solution is to increase the price. I am not fine with that. Sure 10% I can accept, but not this.
It also hurts when they come down from the high of mining shipping everything you can product to loosing half your business almost overnight. When your a publicly traded company, you can't go from record profits overnight to half you business. Their solution is to increase the price. I am not fine with that. Sure 10% I can accept, but not this.
Avet
Active member
They have made a mess of the launch, that is true. But this was the perfect window for release. AMD has nothing for release now. They didn't have anything since Vega, and that was a failure. It was probably moved earlier not to overlap with next AMD release. Until AMD, and Intel even release RT products Nvidia will be far gone.
RTX On, or Off... 2080 Ti is still the fastest GPU on market by far. And further software optimizations will make it even faster.
Even though they could have done it better, for Nvidia it is still win-win. Old stock is selling nicely, new cards are sold out, and by the time competition has initial RTX launch failure Nvidia will be on second generation, and have architecture ready to implement all that R&D from AI and other departments.
And because they can pretty much do whatever they want, Nvidia decided to take AMD's approach. How better to test new stuff than massive public beta test. Like AMD did with Ryzen.
Everyone has forgotten pathetic memory compatibility, AGESA updates every 5 days, idiotic temperature offset, and deafening fan speeds because motherboards panicked. Jay delayed his 30 editing days on Ryzen test for months because it was buggy, crashing, unusable. And now... Ryzen is the go to platform for many.
RTX On, or Off... 2080 Ti is still the fastest GPU on market by far. And further software optimizations will make it even faster.
Even though they could have done it better, for Nvidia it is still win-win. Old stock is selling nicely, new cards are sold out, and by the time competition has initial RTX launch failure Nvidia will be on second generation, and have architecture ready to implement all that R&D from AI and other departments.
And because they can pretty much do whatever they want, Nvidia decided to take AMD's approach. How better to test new stuff than massive public beta test. Like AMD did with Ryzen.
Everyone has forgotten pathetic memory compatibility, AGESA updates every 5 days, idiotic temperature offset, and deafening fan speeds because motherboards panicked. Jay delayed his 30 editing days on Ryzen test for months because it was buggy, crashing, unusable. And now... Ryzen is the go to platform for many.
The price hike was to get rid of the surplus stock. And it worked because people are flooding to purchase 1080ti now thinking that they are a good deal, when they are actually priced closer to what they should have been in the first place.
Also RTX is new proprietary tech from Nvidia, 10% for new tech which has cost them countless millions in R&D is not going to impress shareholders or business analysts. I think it's more to do with recovering their R&D costs than the mining slump. I have already seen 2080ti cards drop by about £50 in Norway. It's not enough, but its a start. Prices begain at 13,600 kr, but you can get a 2080ti for 12,400 (£1142) now. It is steadily falling but it will probably stabilise soon.
AlienALX
Well-known member
The 20 series prices will fall but only so far. I agree with what WC says, they were artificially priced to make full priced Pascal cards look like a great deal (I mentioned that as it started to happen) but the fact is Nvidia have sold bucket loads of cards to miners and now they are back with us looking for the same sort of profit margins they enjoyed for a year.
That and no competition so yeah, don't expect massive price drops.
"You created a beast, now you must feed it" comes to mind here.
That and no competition so yeah, don't expect massive price drops.
"You created a beast, now you must feed it" comes to mind here.
jimthethesnake
New member
its very esey lol nvida cards 50% higher stock the same lol
TheF34RChannel
New member
Firstly, happy new year everyone!
I think the otherworldly pricing is a combination of:
1. Ridding surplus Pascal stock
2. New tech R&D costs (if this would be the sole reason I feel sad for this earth)
3. The mining high: shareholders will never again accept lower prices; the wolves must be fed and all.
To me there is no justification for these prices, plain and simple. It's abysmal and I won't be a part of it.
Prices aren't coming down here at all. Almost no stock, and a few coins short of €2000 for an EVGA Ti.
Nice thread guys, it's good to find one without insults
I think the otherworldly pricing is a combination of:
1. Ridding surplus Pascal stock
2. New tech R&D costs (if this would be the sole reason I feel sad for this earth)
3. The mining high: shareholders will never again accept lower prices; the wolves must be fed and all.
To me there is no justification for these prices, plain and simple. It's abysmal and I won't be a part of it.
Prices aren't coming down here at all. Almost no stock, and a few coins short of €2000 for an EVGA Ti.
Nice thread guys, it's good to find one without insults
Dawelio
Active member
Nice thread guys, it's good to find one without insults
Haha you almost kinda gave me a laugh with your post, after reading this sentence. Since it’s basically true ^_^
TheF34RChannel
New member
Ha ha it is, almost everywhere else it's temper tantrums. The civility of this community speaks volumes.
NeverBackDown
AMD Enthusiast
I don't believe the issue is Ray Tracing itself. It's just poor execution, absurdly high prices, lack of software, and the advertised software that actually launched was poor.
Ray Tracing is the future. To argue it's useless and in some cases I've seen dumb because it's not worth the R&D and higher consumer prices because of said R&D is just beyond naive. I blame the issues on Nvidia as a company but not product
Ray Tracing is the future. To argue it's useless and in some cases I've seen dumb because it's not worth the R&D and higher consumer prices because of said R&D is just beyond naive. I blame the issues on Nvidia as a company but not product
Dicehunter
Resident Newb
I think ray tracing is a step in the right direction and the tech behind it is brilliant but it is not the future in terms of all encompassing photo realistic graphics, Path tracing is more indepth compared to ray tracing but I think that will come quite a few years after ray tracing as it requires a bit more compute power than RT
For ray tracing to really take off it needs to be put into more peoples hands and the current pricing structure Nvidia has is absurd as the 2080 Ti is really the only card to get if you want to experience RT in Shadow of the Tomb Raider, Battlefield 5 and the few demos/benchmarks floating around with any type of decent performance, Anything less and the performance is dire, RT will remain a niche little toggle in the graphics menu just like Physx until Nvidia put the massive bag of weed down and bring prices back down to Earth and/or AMD/Intel bring out an alternative to the 2080 Ti that doesn't cost north of 1 grand.
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All new tech is put out of reach of the average consumer.
Fibre optic cabling... its mainstream now. How hard was it to get that in your home years ago?
Oculus rift: opened the prospect of VR at an extortionate price. Look where we are now. Its £300 for the whole bundle, and fierce competition from all brands
So yeah I agree, that RT needs to be more accessible for all, but new tech has always been absurd in price. I also think its hard for us to judge whether if its the future of gaming given that probably only 1% of us on this forum understand it fully and the direction it will send us. As SPS says... too many armchair developers on forums.
Fibre optic cabling... its mainstream now. How hard was it to get that in your home years ago?
Oculus rift: opened the prospect of VR at an extortionate price. Look where we are now. Its £300 for the whole bundle, and fierce competition from all brands
So yeah I agree, that RT needs to be more accessible for all, but new tech has always been absurd in price. I also think its hard for us to judge whether if its the future of gaming given that probably only 1% of us on this forum understand it fully and the direction it will send us. As SPS says... too many armchair developers on forums.
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Dicehunter
Resident Newb
I'm no dev but I am a lover of pretty graphics and my very very very basic understanding is that ray tracing for the moment is really only good for reflective materials like glass, Various polished bits of rock like marble, Plastics, Metal and water as well as more accurate shadows and lighting in general but not actual solid objects like dirt, Rock, Foliage etc...
I think photogrammetry mixed with RT is a good mix going forward for the time being until RT hardware gets more powerful.
Sorry Dice, the dig at "armchair developers" wasn't aimed at you in the slightest. More of a general comment about some who boldly claim facts they know very little about aside from reading articles on reviews.
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Dicehunter
Resident Newb
No worries bud I was just putting my 2 cents in from a laymans perspective
Personally I am all about immersion over graphics although they do come hand in hand. Such as the direction of VR where we push more towards higher resolutions. It's almost like we have gone back in time in terms of pushing graphics resolutions all over again, except now its a headset instead of a screen.
Really liking the looks of the Pimax 5k+. Trying to find ways to import it to Norway without paying scandulous prices.
Ray tracing in VR, with Headsets supported by multiple GPU at 1440p resolutions per eye at 60fps.... when we get there, the realism begins.
I am with you though. I want to start seeing photo realistic detail. Nvidia has already done it with their deep learning AI by means of a Demo 2 years ago, but it hasn't transitioned to the consumer... yet.
As I've said before, the up-front cost of processor silicon is dependant primarily on the die size of that silicon and the impact it has on chips per wafer and yield of perfect/usable chips. If you compare the prices & die sizes of RTX cards, they're completely in line with Pascal/GTX. You can't really claim one is a rip off and the other isn't, one just has better traditional shader performance per mm^2(Because the extra die space added isn't for traditional shader perf) and therefore per unit cost. And that's before you get into things like increased R&D costs and developer support and the like, which is certainly higher than it was under Pascal.
The true value of RTX cards and every mm^2 they poses can't be assessed until software can use said die space, but no software could use it well until someone had something to test said software on.
A lot of people seemed to expect price drops with Turing, but that doesn't really make sense when it's still using more or less the same process node as Pascal, the cost per mm^2 was always going to remain constant really, especially when the cost of developing each mm^2 (R&D for the new units) apparently risen significantly.
The problem of whether it should be released when it was when there was an inherent cost is just the old chicken and egg problem, hardware always has to significantly predate efficient/well optimised software and that's been the case with everything from CPU ISA's to games consoles.
Also slightly different topic, but path tracing has limited application in games *because* it's so realistic, as it's meant to be an implementation of the monte carlo method it's not really usable for any game with any kind of unique artistic style. If pure realism was all a developer wanted then sure, but that's actually quite rare in gaming beyong simulators and not just because of hardware limitations. RTX cards can perform hardware accelerated path tracing in non-realtime scenarios though.
The true value of RTX cards and every mm^2 they poses can't be assessed until software can use said die space, but no software could use it well until someone had something to test said software on.
A lot of people seemed to expect price drops with Turing, but that doesn't really make sense when it's still using more or less the same process node as Pascal, the cost per mm^2 was always going to remain constant really, especially when the cost of developing each mm^2 (R&D for the new units) apparently risen significantly.
The problem of whether it should be released when it was when there was an inherent cost is just the old chicken and egg problem, hardware always has to significantly predate efficient/well optimised software and that's been the case with everything from CPU ISA's to games consoles.
Also slightly different topic, but path tracing has limited application in games *because* it's so realistic, as it's meant to be an implementation of the monte carlo method it's not really usable for any game with any kind of unique artistic style. If pure realism was all a developer wanted then sure, but that's actually quite rare in gaming beyong simulators and not just because of hardware limitations. RTX cards can perform hardware accelerated path tracing in non-realtime scenarios though.
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