Watercooling newbie. Step 1 - radiator

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[FONT=&quot]Hi all![/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]I plan on watercooling the CPU (Intel Core i7-4790K, TDP 88W) only which I’ll be overclocking. I initially wanted to watercool my two HD7870 Tahiti LE cards too but as far as I know there is no full-cover GPU block for these cards so with universal block I would need to affix RAMsinks to all vRAM modules and VRMs which is too much of a hassle.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]First I need to decide on radiator that I’m gonna be using. I was considering one of Alphacool NexXxos 240mm radiators but I’m not sure what thickness is good for cooling this CPU, 30mm or 45mm (Alphacool NexXxos ST30 or XT45 respectively, both with 10 FPI). I’d like to stay within delta T of 10-15C if it’s possible and keep low fan speed for silent operation. So is this FPI enough and what thickness would better suit my needs?[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Looking at the graphs ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]http://martinsliquidlab.org/2012/05/01/alphacool-nexxxos-st30-360-radiator/4/[/FONT][FONT=&quot]) I come to a conclusion that ST30 is better optimized for low to medium fan speed up to 1000RPM because over 1000RPM the XT45 starts to outperform the other. ST30 also has higher flow restriction.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]There’s another small detail. ST30 is slightly shorter than XT45, which would allow me to mount it in the top of Fractal Design Arc Midi R2 case with thicker end tank in any direction (to the front or back of the case) whereas XT45 will only fit with thicker end tank to the back of the case. This would obviously give more freedom to route tubing.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]As I’m new to watercooling it’s a bit difficult for me to figure out what manufacturers to go for with other parts for this loop so I would appreciate your suggestions. Regarding water block, should I stick with full copper just as with the radiator and how important is to have a backplate as it seems some water blocks don’t have it. What ID tubing size should I use for this loop and what fittings? I kind of like compression fittings for their esthetics but I’m not sure how secure they are compared to others. What’s the best pump/reservoir [combo] I could get? I would NOT want to mount reservoir into 5,25” bays as I’ll be using them for my SSD/HDD and probably for fan controller. And actually I like cylinder-shaped reservoirs better. Pump and reservoir would go either to the bottom of the case or better yet I want to try and fit either or both of them to the back wall of the case next to graphics cards. This way the whole loop would be visible through the window, pump and reservoir would not obstruct the air flow from the front intake fans and I would probably achieve overall tidier and more efficient loop.[/FONT]
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I’m not limited by the budget so more important are performance, reliability, longevity and nice look.[/FONT]
 
Well Alphacool parts are a great start to begin with. In terms of brands the ones that I favour are also Phobya, EK, XSPC.

The ST30 will cool your CPU sufficiently although I always say that getting more rad space is never a bad thing if you can sort out the tube routing to your satisfaction. A 10-15C delta on an overcooked CPU (at load I presume you are asking?) Is probably impossible to be honest, certainly impractical. 30-40C is realistic giving you 50-70C core temp under load depending on voltage.

A DDC or D5 pump with an aftermarket pump top and separate reservoir are definitely the way to go. Personally I favour the EK pump top but with a Phobya Balancer res but there are lots of options.
 
For preformance and noise a AIO would likely meet your goals, be easier to install and maintain. If you are also doing it for esthetics then by all means a custom looop will likely look better but may give you marginal performance gains for a lot more work. The other caveat would be expandability. If you are planning to include other components in the loop later custom is the way to go.
On the rad question all the rads mentined will do the job for a CPU loop only, the thicker the rad, usualy the better range of rpms it will preform at but it may need higher static pressure fans. If you plan on expanding soon the more radiator surface you have the more you can add before adding more radiators, changing cases, etc. Flow restriction should not be a big issue in a CPU only loop.
Either way a critical part is getting good fans. Rad preformance can vary depending on the fans.
The 10 to 15 degree delta refers to the variation in air to coolant temperature not component temperature. Most user loops do not measure coolant temperature as it requires a dedicated probe and most people are more concerned on "is my CPU going to fry?" Than loop efficieny. Even a loop with massive radiator space will be very unlikely to have a cpu idle/load delta of 10 to 15 degrees due to the conductivity limit of the blocks. So expect idles in the 30c and loads in the 50-60c for an ambient around 20-25c.
Just to give you an idea my loop has a 480x45mm a 240x25mm and a 360x60mm cooling a 4770k @4.7ghz and a gtx 780 sightly oveclocked with the cpu at 30c idle and 57c load with the graphics card at 45c under load.
As above the best pumps for power and noise are D5 variants with a suitable top. DDC's are less powerful and less reliable due to heat issues but they are smaller and don't add heat to the loop (D5's are watercooled by the loop)
Tube diameter is largely irrelevant. I personally like large tubing (1/2 x 3/4 inch) but it is harder to route and can kink more. Choose watever looks better to you.
Compression fittings are easier to work with and in my opinion look better. I have never had trouble with them but they do have a higher potential for leaks. Barbs are safer but look worse. As with anythig its a compromise i use compressions. If you are careful and leaktest you should be ok.
For the block I like the raystorm for its low temps and restriction but the new apogee looks good too. The coldplate should be copper and you should try to avoid other metals in the loop to keep things simple. The rest of the block doesn't matter as much, acetal and other plastics are ok. It should come with a backplate to be able to attach it securely, most do.
Sorry for the wall of words.
 
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For low temps the most important factor will be the thermal capacity of the CPU block design. Once that's reached it doesn't matter if you add more rads. If you're planning to only cool the CPU then either radiator you mentioned will be sufficient, the thicker rad giving you more room for adding extra blocks or fewer/lower rpm fans.

As for the block itself I've heard good things about Kyros blocks, XSPC raystorm looks the part and EK are good if you like their designs. I skimped out on the CPU block since I was planning just to cool the GPU but changed my mind at the last minute. Block in use is the EK Supreme LTX.

Tubing and fittings are more a personal choice rather than about performance. I tested out 19/13 tubing as well, why not! Since we both have the same case I can heartily recommend to avoid at all costs. It was such a PITA to work with in quite a small space with little room to bend the tubing. My next update I'll be replacing the tubing with 13/10, I simply can't bare the thought of replacing all the current tubing again :(

Compression fittings are fantastic and monsoon fittings even more so. Pictures don't do them justice. I use black chrome for my build and have matte black/green just to see what they look like (potential use for next build). As it is, the green fitting definitely my favorite :) Should you use monsoon, the tubing (Primochill 19/13) fits so tight its bloody difficult to fully screw the compression fitting on. You need not worry about leaks with that combination!

I use a 5.25 bay res with a d5 vario pump. Since you wont be using the res I can't help you there but the d5 pump is a must. Set it to 1 and off you go, you really can't go wrong with it.

As for my set up the radiator is a Alphacool Nexxos monsta (80mm thick) 240 paired up with two Aero cool DS Edition fans set at 7V. Idle temps on the CPU is around 33/34 (4.2GHz i5 3570k) with the gpu at stock settings (hovering around 37c). Room temp atm is 17c. Hope that gives you a ballpark figure of what you can expect.
 
Thanks to all for taking the trouble to share your opinion.

You might be right that custom loop would give me marginal performance gain over AIO solution. But as some of you correctly said, I'm also doing it for esthetics, possible expandability and just for the sake of enjoying the challenge. Besides, I think AIO are prone to variety of problems (pumps are weaker and less reliable, closed loop is impossible to clean, etc.). Also their radiators usually have high FPI which doesn't make them exactly silent solution.

Would you advise against pump/reservoir combo? What are the benefits of having those separate? I thought that additional tubing between those two would only add more restriction to the loop and take more space.

As for waterblock, if you refer to Swiftech's Apogee HD, I read good review about it and I like it, and with this component the look matters less to me than performance. I kind of like its aggressive design. And I also like its mounting system that ensures the right amount of pressure on the CPU and an equal amount of pressure on all four corners. That's exactly what I was looking for in waterblock having prior experience with Noctua air coolers and well thought-out design of their mounting system. I have only one doubt about it. I'm not sure it's compatible with LGA 1150 socket. There's no mention of it in specification for this waterblock on Swiftech web site. I heard from Noctua that Intel hasn't changed the mounting dimensions since LGA 1156 socket but I'd like to be absolutely sure.
 
By all means, I would never discourage someone from watercooling. Just giving you options.
For res/pump combos depends on the combo. The main advantage is if your space is limited. Restriction is not usually a problem but can actually be worse with some combos due to tight turns. Tube res/pump combos are ok if you can fit them. Be aware that most require you to fit them upright. Separate res/pumps give you more flexibility.
I was actually referring to the Apogee XL. I own an HD and it is a good block. As i said i am currently using the Raystorm as it has less restriction and works better for 1150 procs. They will fit without a problem as the socket has not changed.
 
If I can ask additional questions?..

So the parts I'm settling on are:
Alphacool NexXxos XT45 radiator.
Swiftech Apogee HD waterblock (XL model is not available from where I live and I prefer Apogee's mounting system to XSPC Raystorm's).
EK-D5 Vario motor with EK-D5 X-TOP CSQ - Acetal for a pump.

1) Is EK-RES X3 150 (240 ml) reservoir going to be enough for this loop?

2) What tubing size would you recommend - 10/13mm (3/8" - 1/2") or 12/16mm (7/16" - 5/8")? The way I understand it, Swifterch Apogee HD waterblock has average restriction level and thus better optimized for low flow. But I'm not sure how kink resistant is smaller diameter 10/13mm (3/8" - 1/2") tubing. On the other hand, how hard is it to work with larger diameter 12/16mm (7/16" - 5/8") tubing and make tighter bends?

3) What else would you recommend to have in the loop for easy draining - bleed valve of some kind, T-line, drain valve, quick disconnect barb/compression, etc?
 
Looks good.
1) There is no set volume required for reservoirs. Many loops don't even include one and replace then with a T or Y line. It just makes it easier to fill and bleed the system. For the most part the volume is a space/look choice.

2) The HD has moderate restriction which means for the same pump power you will get lower flow than other blocks. It is not specifically optimized for lower flow. All blocks will benefit from higher flow with eventual diminishing returns and most modern blocks will work with even very low flow. Restriction comes into play with loops with multiple blocks in series where flow is reduced to a crawl.
Regarding the tubing i have not worked with any of those diameters personally. The thicker the wall and the smaller the diameter the more kink resistant. Tubing does not add much resistance to a loop regardless of the diameter (on the ones commercially available). The smaller the tubing the easier to route. I like larger diameters personally. Even the 1/2 x 3/4 is not bad but i do have a large case (900d) and tend to use angled fittings and straight runs whenever possible.

3) if you are up for some light modding a fill port is always nice. A drain port can be useful if you can get it to be the lowest point (it can be the same as the fill with proper placement). Ive used quick disconnects and they can make servicing components easier bit they take up a lot of space and can make the loop look messy. I have some and no longer use them.

I would make a mock up plan of your setup to scale. That will help with placement, orientation of the parts and help you plan what fittings you may need.
 
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My tiny project slowly comes to fruition. In addition to the parts I mentioned above I get Monsoon compression fittings and PrimoChill PrimoFlex Advanced LRT 15,9/11,1mm white tubing. I plan on using a premix clear (no dyes) coolant. I believe there is not much difference between brands. Or is there? What I can't figure out is whether I need a kill coil (or in this case I'd like to use Monsoon Silver Bullet) with premix when I have copper and brass in my loop. And if I do need it, would it be wrong to fit Monsoon Silver Bullet into one of the four available ports on Alphacool radiator? Would placing it there speed up any corrosion reaction between silver and copper? The reason for placing it there is that the radiator is thick enough so the plug will not restrict the flow as opposed to fitting it into one of the three available ports on EK-RES X3 reservoir. Also I was thinking of using this plug as a bleed valve and/or fillport. So what's your opinion on all this?
 
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It depends on the premix you use but most contain some type of algaecide and corrosion preventer (otherwise they would be distilled water) so you should not need a kill coil with premixes. Silver and copper are not galvanically different enough to cause problems in most situations ( i have used a killcoil with copper blocks for years without a problem). There is a problem with some nickel plated blocks, notably EK although there is some controversy about that.
Filling needs to be done directly into the top of the reservoir (port 6 in a vertical mount) most of the time to ensure you can adequately feed the pump during bleeding. That is the whole point of the reservoir. I would not fill through a rad as the pump is likely to run dry and can burn out. I would also try to connect ports 4 or 5 to your pump.
 
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Thanks for your opinion. The radiator in my loop will be horizontal and mounted to the top of the case while tube reservoir will be slightly lower and fixed to the back wall of the case. I understand the problem with dry pump during filling and bleeding so my idea of filling the loop is like this. I'll keep one of the radiator ports open while filling the reservoir to the top. This ensures that cooler will fill the loop to the top level of reservoir. Only then I'll use radiator port for further filling the loop. Actually, I have a background in water supply and HVAC but I'm just too lazy to go scientific on all this :-)
 
By the way, what's the preferred method of mounting fans on a radiator if there is only one set of fans, in push or in pull configuration? I always thought that fans should push the air through radiator fins (at least with regard to air coolers). Does the fan performance differ depending on where the obstruction is, on intake or exhaust? In which configuration the fan's dead zone makes lesser impact or is there no difference?
 
It offers very little difference in performance. Some tests suggest that if the fans spin under ~1200RPM then pull is better whilst above ~1200 push is better.

In practice you may be limited by where you can place the radiators and fans in the first place and you want to create a sensible airflow inside your case first before worrying about the finer details.

For example - in my case I have a radiator in the roof. The radiator is 60mm wide and hangs under the case whilst there is only room for a set of fans inside the top cover. Therefore I have to put the fans above the radiator. Since I'm not going to go against physics my only option is to set up the fans in pull.
 
My main concern with push or pull configuration is this. My Alphacool radiator comes only with 30 and 35 mm screws. This radiator will be installed in the roof and if I want the fans to push the air through the fins, I will need to look for 5mm M3 screws to fix the radiator to the roof. I intend to revert the fan in the back of the case to blow the air inside.

Today I finally received my Alphacool radiator. While examining the radiator I noticed a small damage to one of the fins. A small piece was chipped off of that fin and channel to which that fin should be attached is slightly warped. It looks like an impact mark of something thin but as the channel is warped too the impact should have been relatively strong. As the paint is not damaged I assume it happened before the radiator was painted, which makes it harder to assess any possible damage.

Should I be worried about potential leak? Would you recommend replacing this radiator with new one and will it be qualified for a replacement? Please have a look at the pictures and tell me if I make a fuss about nothing.
 

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I think i understand what you mean. As long as you are able to fill the reservoir and have easy access to the ports it should work but bleeding may be harder. Just take into account that the pump obstructs flow until it is on which means the loop will only fill to the pump. Then you turn it on and empties the res. the you refill and repeat.
+1 to what Master&puppet said. Overall airflow trumps radiator advantages.
I would try to RMA your radiator if possible. Leaks are not the problem if it is not leaking now as much as the channel being pinched and increasing restriction and decreasing flow and cooling. Thats a significant bump.
 
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Thanks to all! I would appreciate your comment on the following too. I also received two sets (6 fittings in each) of 7/16"x5/8" Monsoon compression fittings in mat black. But the weird thing is that one set came with clamps in mat black and barbs in silver (just nickel plated?). I was expecting clamps and barbs to be of the same color as they are on manufacturer's web site and as is the case with one of the sets. Does Monsoon do that, I mean mixing colors, is it normal, is it a mistake or a joke? Should I request a replacement set from the shop?
 
The mat black/black chrome fittings delivered to me all came with 'unfinished' barbs. To me that is normal. Only my green fitting had a green finished barb.

There isn't the possibility at all of getting a close'er' shot of your broken radiator fin (and shine a light down the gap)? First glance it just appears to be an aesthetic defect (a broken fin) with no operational loss. But if that happened during transit and possibly cracked a pipe then you aught to request a replacement. The pics you uploaded don't show any clear damage to the pipes.
 
Unfortunately, I can't make a better picture no matter how I tried. I can't see any clear damage either partly because the pipe (channel) is painted. Which means that it happened before the radiator was painted, not even during transportation (the packaging is intact and there's nothing inside that could look like a piece of the fin). I don't know their manufacturing process and whether they pressure test radiators before shipping (it could as well happen during soldering). I didn't test this radiator for leaks and I especially I don't want to find out whether it leaks the hard way meaning when my system is running. That's why I'm asking for your opinion whether I should worry about chipped off fin and slightly warped channel.
 
Hi all!

I've got another concern. I tried to screw Monsoon compression fittings in to Swiftech Apogee HD CPU block but they go in with much resistance. In order to feel the resistance I used only fingers and I could only screw them in half way down. I was afraid to strip the thread in block's acetal top so I didn't use provided tool to screw them all the way down. The block seems to have the same G1/4 threads and two barbs provided with the block go in the ports with ease. To a naked eye, the treads on Apogee and Monsoon barbs have the same thread pitch as well as the same outside diameter of 12,8mm according to my measurements which I made with vernier caliper.

What could be the problem? Thread's pitch, depth? Could I potentially strip the thread if I used a tool and applied more force to screw Monsoon barbs all the way down?
 
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