Nvidia Kepler

[yassarikhan786]

CES starts tomorrow

Nvidia's keynotes should be interesting, not sure if the Kelper stuff is public or private though either way there should be some leeks, there always is.

Can't wait

.

 

[Scoob]

Hi,

Interesting times ahead certainly.

I've been impressed with what I've read so far about AMD's new 7970, even though the very first review I read appeared to massively over-report the the power usage. A good show certainly, if a rather high price point - still, they're the "best" at the moment so they can justify it purely for that reason. Let's see how their mid-range (i.e the money earners) price themselves vs. both current and next gen NV...

So, AMD have given us a good flagship single-GPU product after both shrinking to a 28nm process (quite a drop!) and moving to a much more complex design - similar to how NV have done things for a while. In the past (6 series and before) AMD's less-complex approach enabled them to scale better and produce a cheaper product that still performed very well. Now, NV have also moved to 28nm of course, yet their design isn't wildly different - it was complex before and it's still complex.

AMD have certainly gotten great results with their TWO changes (in simple terms) but things could go either way for NV at this point. I.e. NV already do "complex" GPU cores quite well, whereas AMD had to move to a more complex (and expensive) process to move the game on. AMD doing two changes might explain the decent jump in performance, maybe NV will only benefit from the shrink to 28nm so the real jump (once testers get their hands on the kit) won't be so great. However, the reverse might be true. NV are now experienced in designing and producing (for a price) more complex parts so maybe they can bring their game on more too. Also, do we have the potential to see a shift away from the traditional AMD "not quite as fast but generally better bank-per-buck" now they've moved into creating more complex GPU's. Maybe NV, with their years of experience with more complex GPUs, will be in a position to offer a little more for the money...

Regardless, at this time all we can do is speculate. The data "leaked" by NV is encouraging, but obviously has been squewed to show the data (assuming it's not simply made up!) in the best light possible. However, it's worth saying that NV's weakness was often thought to be at higher resolutions such as 2560x1600 where VRAM became more of an issue. Largely irrelevant for the majority of gamers, but a crucial marketing win nevertheless. My friend with twin 1.5gb 480's has been gaming at 2560x1600 for a while now without issue, though if he went triple-screen (so 5000+ x 1080/1200) then I think he'd no longer be able to max things as he does now.

Personally, whichever team be it AMD/Intel or AMD/NV give me the product I want for the price I'm willing to pay will get my custom. If I had to buy today, and I wanted a high-end part, that team would be AMD. However, with the 700 series from NV just around the corner I can afford to wait. To be fair, I currently run a pair of GTX 570's (back at stock speed) at a fairly normal 1920x1200 and they eat everything up. This puts me in a position to be able to wait and see. Thought really, unless I run into problems / get bored and need a hardware "fix", I'd likely not be looking until the 8000 / 800 series of GPU's from both teams, that would likely be paired with a complete new system build around IB-E.

It is fun following the back and forth between AMD and NV in particular, especially as AMD's showing this time has been particualrly strong. The "real" (i.e. tested and proven) performance of the 7970 is a good step forward from AMD last-gen 6970, a very good step. It's also a marked improvement across the board vs. NV's nearly-last-gen GTX 580 - most notably in MINIMUM FPS scores, an area where NV often had AMD beaten even when the AMD card might win in terms of pure max FPS. This is key to me. I don't notice if my FPS blips above 60fps, however I damn well notice when it blips below that.

Anyway, I'm eagerly awaiting any leaks from CES 2012 about NV's new stuff - I just hope we get a product like the 580 was at launch, rather than the 480. Both capable performers certainly, however the 480 was flawed. AMD have set the bar for 28nm GPU's and we expect greatness

Think I've waffled on for long enough now...going back into my cave, wake me when it's spring...

Scoob.

 

[yassarikhan786]

That was a nice read Scoob, you make some awesome points as always. You might be right about AMD moving away from the "Bang for Buck" pricing strategy that they have been using until now.

 

[Scoob]

That was a nice read Scoob, you make some awesome points as always. You might be right about AMD moving away from the "Bang for Buck" pricing strategy that they have been using until now.

Hi,

Thanks

It might make the market a little more interesting over the coming months too. Consider that traditionally - and I'll use 6000 vs 500 series as the prime example - we'd expect AMD's high-end single GPU part to trade blows with NV near high-end, so 6970 vs. 570 for example. This is in the "normal" situation of good HD (1920x1080) gaming many PC gamers kit supports.

Next we'd usually see AMD's high-end single GPU nipping at the heels of NV high-end single GPU card. Never quite as quick but a fine offering and often at a price point that makes it hard to resist. It appears to me that AMD's approach up to now has made it cheaper for them to produce their high-end offering, so they can price very aggressively as needed.

If with their new generation of GPU's the production costs are UP per unit, AMD may not have quite the same degree of room for positioning their products at the "right" price-point based on performance offered. We of course need to wait to see what levels of performance, and of course price, the more-popular mid-range cards offer. Previous gens of AMD GPU's scaled exceptionally well, giving them very strong mid-range offereing for the masses - possibly due to the "more, but less complex" nature of AMD "cores" vs. NV's. NV did well at this with the 500 series in my mind, but had been a little behind previously. Typically a mid-range AMD card offered more for your money that a similar NV card - but that's just my view. However, the late-arriving 460 did redress the balance and begin to hint at the true potential of Fermi as an all-rounder (Price, performance, power, heat) that the 500 series later proved.

When it comes to DUAL GPU's on a single card however AMD have been showing everyone how it's done. The older generation "x2" cards were epic, if sometimes a little tricky to get working perfectly. It's here NV really need to catch up as, to be quite frank, the 590 was a bit embarassing and I so wanted to like that card. I know later revisions (which came quite quickly if I recall) basically sorted things (like with the 295) and better drivers smoothed things out further, still, it wasn't such a great release in my mind. Considering the 500 series was a great step forward over the 400, the 590 wasn't quite what I'd hoped for. It's a shame it took ASUS with their MARS II to get it right...but considering the price they sorta lost that particular fight. But hey, MARS is a whole different marketing exercise really so we'll call that a special case

Looking back, my old GTX 275 was a great card, one-step behind the top single-GPU offering from NV, the 285, yet very powerful, overclocked well (for that generation) and is still going strong in my media box. The 460 (a late-comer to the 400 lineup) wasn't actually much faster in DX9 and 10 titles and DX11 didn't have much of a draw right away as nothing really used it's features. The 470 (a logical upgrade path and available long before the 460 of course) performed OK, but not that much better and was expensive, hot and noisy, being as it was a slightly older design than the 460. The 480 was at the top of the performance tree but even hotter and noisier, so I avoided that one. The 570 nailed it for me upgrade-path wise. It gave me ~double performance, DX11, was cooler and quieter and used less power than my 275. Additionally the 570 had great overclocking headroom.

The reason I mention the above is because I want to see such a jump going to the 700 series. For me (if I were to upgrade) a 770 would likely be the level I'd consider - albeit as a pair for SLI. How I see things is a GPU upgrade usually occurs ever two generations or series releases. I.e. 275 to 570 gave me double the performance and some nice new features while being cooler and quieter and less power-hungry. So, those on say a 470/480 now would ideally like to see the 770/780 giving them double what they have now - something I thing 28nm and some architecture tweaks may well bring. We shall see.

I'd like to add that the 480 is a great GPU, my friend runs a pair under water and they are epic running his 30" screen at 2560x1600. I've said for a while that it's almost like these cards were made for water, they really are good. However, a little while back, I did have experience using an air cooled (stock) 480 for a while. It really is hot and so very noisy on that stock cooler - though I know the aftermarket offering improve this massively. If I'd opted for a 480, as could so easily have happened had the 500 series not materialised or arrived late, I think I'd be looking eagerly at Keplar right now and, if NV bugger it up, knowing that AMD have a very strong offering availble NOW.

If Keplar turns out to be slightly less than we'd hope, AMD will rightfully take the lead with their excellent offering - caveat being how the rest of the line up...erm...lines up in the price/performance stakes of course

Worst-case I'd like NV offering to be "good enough" to keep AMD honest, the market busy and the bargains coming! I'll admit, I'd be very pleased if NV pull an "8000 series" coup with Keplar as that'd certainly shake the market up and give us even more options. Imagine, if you will, that NV's 780 is 30% faster than the 7970 on average. AMD would (traditionally speaking) then price more aggressively still. 7970 for £330? Damn, that's a lot of GPU for the money even if the 780 performs better but is say £450! The BIG question is of course, can AMD still do this with their new much more complex design? I'm seeing 7970's ranging from £480 to £515 currently online, which is really rather expensive. Isn't this higher than the 580 was actually available for at launch? I'm sure around £450 was normal with some brands being near £400 - I did look at the time before eventually deciding on my first 570 which was just £250 (+£10 P&P) but offered 85%+ the performance...

Interesting times in GPU land for sure

Scoob.

P.S. My cave evidently has internet so I guess I'll stick around to see how this one pans out

 

[MaXiMiZe]

Awesome reading material mate. I very much agree with what you said. Much better than the usual 3-4 sentences that I can come up with lol

 

[Scoob]

Awesome reading material mate. I very much agree with what you said. Much better than the usual 3-4 sentences that I can come up with lol

Cheers MaXiMiZe,

A fair bit of speculation on my part there though

Here's hoping NV bring us something special with their first Keplar release and that AMD continue to impress with the rest of their new 7000 series lineup.

I take it as a good sign when I want to want the new hardware, if you get what I mean, even when my current rig is performing admirably

*

Scoob.

* Note that I have, rather daftly, "justified" building entire new systems where I've had a spare screw lying around! **

** Ok, it was a spare (and old) 8800 GT around which I built my new media box (Q6700, ASUS P45 mobo, 4gb ram, PSU, case...etc. etc.)

 

[we1shcake]

theres an article over on semiaccurate saying the gk104 cards will be fantastic, info from a "insider source", semiaccurate is normally very anti-nvidia so the article could mean something. there arent many specifics though

 

[trazomfr]

I read the SemiAccurate article and graphics card Nvidia seem very good. The question is whether everything is true. Many say yes, because the article is made ​​by a reporter pro-ATI but I can not believe that a serious journalist can be for one brand over another.

 

[SieB]

The latest rumors are that Nvidia are going to release a card that costs $300 but performs better than a 7970.

I don't believe that to be honest, if Nvidia has a card that performs better than a 7970 why would they charge $200 less than the 7970 for it, makes no sense to me. If anything, if it is true it's more likely that it's faster than the 7950 and not the 7970, that would also make more sense because the 7950 will be around $300 so the price to performance figures match.

 

[trazomfr]

If the rumor is true (personally do not believe this rumor) this will be a great SLI and a fatal blow to ATI.

 

[DB006]

I don't think Nvidia have anything up their electronic sleeves atm to compete with Tahiti, hence why there is no release confirmed.

It's just derping from Nvidia to buy some time and keep the NV fanboys interested and from going AMD.

They pulled the plug on an announcement at CES due to being in total shock over the 7970's performance.

 

[SieB]

I reckon they have cards but they are not as good as the rumors are making them out to be.

No real information has been given about the cards yet and if they are as good as they are rumored to be why aren't they releasing any info. Sounds like they have something to hide to me. Until Nvidia gives us some real info or some real benches appear i'm believing nothing.

I wish they would release something though I just want to see what the cards are like and how they perform compared to AMD's 7000 series

Nvida/AMD means nothing to me, what matters is the bang for my buck.

 

[MaXiMiZe]

The latest rumors are that Nvidia are going to release a card that costs $300 but performs better than a 7970.

I don't believe that to be honest, if Nvidia has a card that performs better than a 7970 why would they charge $200 less than the 7970 for it, makes no sense to me. If anything, if it is true it's more likely that it's faster than the 7950 and not the 7970, that would also make more sense because the 7950 will be around $300 so the price to performance figures match.

The 7950 is going to cost a minimum of $400 and a maximum of $449.

 

[SieB]

That makes it even less believable that the Nvidia card will be faster than the 7970 and only cost $300 if the 7950 is $400. It makes no sense for them to sell a card that is faster than a 7970 for $200 less than it and $100-$150 less than a 7950.

 

[MaXiMiZe]

That makes it even less believable that the Nvidia card will be faster than the 7970 and only cost $300 if the 7950 is $400. It makes no sense for them to sell a card that is faster than a 7970 for $200 less than it and $100-$150 less than a 7950.

Yeah I agree 100%. The 7950 looks to be on par with the gtx 580 in terms of performance.

 

[Cyanide89]

Is it just me, or am I the only one that wonders why Scoob signs his name "Scoob" at the end of his posts?

 

[Scoob]

Yeah I agree 100%. The 7950 looks to be on par with the gtx 580 in terms of performance.

When I came to this forum I was surprised how many don't sign off at the end of a post. Just a convention I've followed for years I guess, like signing emails etc.

One place I worked, if you didn't end your mail:

Brgs,

Your Name

It was considered very very rude. Brgs short for "Best Regards". I was working for a French company at the time, so whether that influenced it I don't know. The corporate language was English across all countries we operated in (lots!) so I guess someone at some point decided on a "standard" sign off for everyone. I have noticed that different cultures can be quite sensitive to subtle things like this sometimes.

I have friends of mine who sign their name at the end of each TEXT message they send on their phones too, though being somewhat less formal I find that one odd myself lol.

So yes, me signing off could be considered largely redundant as people already know who's posted what, but I like signing off, it's polite

Back on topic: I do hope NV aren't exagerating too much, doubtless they are exagerating somewhat, that's what marketing is largely after all. Still, I do hope for a very strong showing from Keplar. After all, if AMD can do it with their first foray into a much more complex GPU architecture then NV should, in theory, be slightly ahead of the curve.

Part of me actually expects [EpicVoice] "The battle of 28nm" [/EpicVoice] to be fairly evenly matched, with products standing out by their price point and other features. So, that always important (for the majority) bang per buck, temperature, noise etc. We shall see. Saying that though, NV have every reason to be at least a little nervous given the 7970 launch - that really is one stonking card, but so very expensive at the moment. If AMD can shift the price down as production ramps up (assuming they have room to move based on production cost per unit) then NV will have to shine at it's given price point at launch. Guess that's always true, however AMD seem to have ticked all the boxes (Perfomance, Heat, Power, Noise) bar Price with this launch. The last one they're allowed to miss (for the time being) as they are FIRST and currently fastest, so points to them for that!

Cheers,

Scoob.

 

[trazomfr]

I just found this post. The spokesman of Nvidia gives his opinion on the performance of AMD's new graphics cards compared to their future graphics cards Kepler.

We can say that it is particularly confident.

 

[S_I_N]

not gonna say it must resist saying it

 

[yassarikhan786]

not gonna say it must resist saying it

lmao