Israel, Palestine-Gaza Conflict.. your opinon

[ruthless_villain]

after watching louis verouxs ( or something similiar) real zionists on BBC 2 last night i just thought i would ask some of you guys what your opinion is on the age long conflict i personally thought the programme was really bias as they only spoke to one arab and the other arab they showed was made out to be a raving mad man... anyways leave it to you guys to leave your comments

 

[Filekutter]

I didn't have the "joy" of seeing that program, but I have been watching Al Jazeera's "live stream" almost continuously for days. I will say first that I've more than a few already formed opinions re: the "troubles" in the Middle East. Being Yank of course, I have a multitude of pre-built issues; support to: Israel, Mubarak; the invasion of Iraq, and even the original partitioning of the entire area after the world war, which was ONLY to keep a hand on the oil fields.

What I saw in Cairo was a spontaneous, and almost inevitable decision by a large population of people who had been for many years, disenfranchised from the most basic of human rights and support systems which any country should have available to their citizens. Many people here in the states are watching the images and for some strange reason seem to think the Egyptian people either love to be in such conflict, or are unable to feel pain. And will even presume to believe that the demonstrators are "socialists", or Islamic radicals (which they are definitely not). Its embarrassing, but it is a fact.

For a large group of people, and I also must stress that these are people from every background, and not trained or bored anarchists out for some fun; this was obviously something that came from a deeper urge... or a place where the fears of retaliation (which is regular and horrifying... for proof try this link: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/06/weekinreview/06held.html?_r=1 ) are ingrained thru exposure daily.

For people to put themselves into a situation where they are almost assured of brutality, pain, injury... exposure to torture, and even worse, means that they had been backed into a corner. No one, well for the most part, willingly puts themselves in such a situation for the heck of it... they do it because they cannot see another option to alleviate the pain of living.

So, IMHO, those people were drawing a line in the sand that was long, long, overdue. I am ashamed of my country's support of Mubarak... he's a monster. His removal is a nice gesture, but the entire regime has to be dismantled. Unfortunately, there's a huge number of people with a vested interest in preserving the status quo; if for nothing else, than to stay away from charges of crimes against humanity.

I am in complete support of the people in Tahrir, and every day I just hope that no more blood is shed. As for Obama, well... yesterday he said he was... "praying". I so want to bish-slap him for that. He's our bloody president, and he's only able to ... PRAY?~!!! Nothing like some superstition to give the people comfort. If nothing else, at least send a hundred Shao Lin priests!

 

[Tortuga]

Its a delicate position Obama is in. It is not an easy job, as everyone thinks they can do better. He has to push for freedom and human rights in the region, insisting on the transition of power out of Mubarak's hands, while at the same time leaving the decisions up to Egypt. The future of their country is in their own hands, and we do not know what sort of administration will take place if the transition isn't done right. Sometimes you trade one dictator for another, and in the event that another regime like the one that steps down does take over, well, how does that make Obama look? It would look like he helped facilitate the reigns of power into the hands of another bad regime. So Obama had to be careful, to not condone VIOLENT demonstrations, while not being too soft on Mubarak. Other white house officials, have made it abundantly clear, its time for Mubarak to go. Obama cannot be as cavalier as them in their choice of words, because he is the President. We do not support Mubarak, but we can't go in there and rip him out of office. Egyptians don't want us involved at all, nor should we be, unless they keep beating the piss out of our journalists! No one gets to punch Anderson Cooper but me!

 

[Runebeard]

after watching louis verouxs ( or something similiar) real zionists on BBC 2 last night i just thought i would ask some of you guys what your opinion is on the age long conflict i personally thought the programme was really bias as they only spoke to one arab and the other arab they showed was made out to be a raving mad man... anyways leave it to you guys to leave your comments

I don't think it was meant to show any kind of bias. The description said it was meant to be a programme about the ultra nationalist jews, who fight for their country whether they are right or wrong, like the guy who bought up Arab properties effectively slowly evicting their population, or the guys who were illegally settling outside of jewish areas. They want ALL of the region to become Israel with Gaza and the West Bank pushed out of existence.

But personally, I almost don't understand why it's so difficult. Palestine want the rejoin Gaza and the West Bank into one region right? And Israel just wants a few of it's holy places like Bethlehem to be in their territory right? Surely there has to be some way they can redraw the map to accomplish this. I know I made it sound like you could just do it overnight, but one side just has to be the "bigger man" and yield a little to the other, to try and help negotiations. I'm not sure if it'll ever really be resolved as Israel is a very proud nation and quite stubborn in that respect, whilst Palestine in their frustration have voted in Hamas, who don't help matters by constantly launching attacks on Jewish settlements.

 

[Tortuga]

I don't think it was meant to show any kind of bias. The description said it was meant to be a programme about the ultra nationalist jews, who fight for their country whether they are right or wrong, like the guy who bought up Arab properties effectively slowly evicting their population, or the guys who were illegally settling outside of jewish areas. They want ALL of the region to become Israel with Gaza and the West Bank pushed out of existence.

But personally, I almost don't understand why it's so difficult. Palestine want the rejoin Gaza and the West Bank into one region right? And Israel just wants a few of it's holy places like Bethlehem to be in their territory right? Surely there has to be some way they can redraw the map to accomplish this. I know I made it sound like you could just do it overnight, but one side just has to be the "bigger man" and yield a little to the other, to try and help negotiations. I'm not sure if it'll ever really be resolved as Israel is a very proud nation and quite stubborn in that respect, whilst Palestine in their frustration have voted in Hamas, who don't help matters by constantly launching attacks on Jewish settlements.

I agree with this. Jerusalem is central to worship over 3 religions. Jerusalem is the land god promised the Jews in the old testament, and have the rock Abraham was about to sacrifice his son on, and the temple of Solomon (now destroyed). This is the place in Judaism, they believe to be the spot of the Messiah's return.

The dome in which Muhammad ascended to heaven and gained instructions is central to the Islamic religion. Alot of other small mundane events in Muhammad's life occurred here also.

To Christians the significance is obvious. This is one of the places Jesus taught in synagogues, performed some miracles. This is where Jesus was crucified under Pilate at the site of Golgotha, resurrected, and made his ascension to Heaven.

And exactly, with some claims to religious rights to worship, its hard to say whats fair. Sooner or later someone is going to be the bigger man, and try to work out a way where everyone can worship their given holy sites in peace. Crazy thought huh?

 

[Filekutter]

If the Israelis hadn't pushed, and shoved, and treated the Palestinians like gutter-trash, that could have happened, but its moot now. They're continuing to invade new areas, pushing families out of houses, then bulldozing them and putting up Kibbutzim. They constantly keep the flow of the basic needs at either a trickle, or shut off completely, causing hardships for weeks if not months, without a single regret. They have never tried to stop the militant Israelis from indiscriminately shooting non-Israelis, and even seem to support it. This is why there's some angry people in the West Bank, and the rest of the Middle East; and we're funding them, and supplying them with weapons... and all for the voting block here in the states. Oh, and don't forget all that oil.

If Israel wanted, they could defuse every bit of tension in the Middle East by just allowing the sharing of Jerusalem, but they don't, and won't.

 

[Stryker64]

Fact is in this conflict you can't point a finger and say blah blah is the cause of all the problems they are the army of darkness that must be stopped. The war in Palestine is a lot more complicated than that.

Initially the conflict began when the Israeli nation was formed. The Palestinians were like "Stupid UN forming a country where our homes were," and they proceeded to attack Israel as an attempt regain the land that was taken away and assigned to the Israelis. However the Israelis won the first war.

The reason why Israel is so aggressive is their use of the strategy the best defence is a good offence. Their policies are centered around preemptive strikes, which they justify because the other nations are building up forces to attack them. So from the Israel point of view this is self defence.

Also this conflict can't be resolved by simply making Jerusalem a neutral city available to all, because the conflict isn't just about that one city, it's about the Israel which the Palestinians view as being taken from them. Meanwhile the Israeli's say that this is their promised land from God, which is both the same and different God as that of Islam.

You have to remember that human rights abuses in wars happen on both sides.

 

[Filekutter]

TO Zeals: I didn't say there's no rights abuse on the Palestinian side, and that is because of the huge amount of media devoted to making sure its constantly kept in the public eye. Here in the States for instance, there's been a refusal by our major cable companies to keep Al Jazeera off the TV channel lists. Then there's the constant barrage of FUD being slung around in reference to anything Islamic, Middle Eastern, etc etc. Take the ridiculous anti-mosque movements throughout the country this last year as a starting point. To be honest, I don't care about the religions; I think we have enough proof now that a country based upon a religion is just insane at the root.

Now, as for easy problems... Egypt is not a problem, for us. Its change within a country that is long overdue, and our corporate, or selfish, interests are our problem and have no right being brought up. If its petroleum, well, the oil companies have been buying, blocking, and subverting every piece of new technology (alternative energy) brought to the table by anyone. That's a fact. And the voting public has continually voted in people whose interests are to assist those companies with laws, and propaganda to help keep them in business. So, again, if its oil interests we're concerned about, the issue is here at home. What the Egyptians do is their business. What I will do is hope that something better for the citizens of Egypt grows from this, and to be honest, just about any government without a secret police would be a good start.

There's been a lot of people making a lot of money off the violence going on in the Middle East. Halliburton, Remington, Smith and Wesson... Boeing, Lockheed Martin, and all the others who make the weapons to sell to those who want them. This, just like the private prison industry here and its lobbyists making sure Pot is never legalized, is a billion dollar business. These have become the forces of "change" in many offices of government here, and its only getting worse. We do have a word for it... Oligarchy.

Okay... rant over, and I did NOT mean this as a flame Zeals, at all. Just my view. I don't disagree with you at all.