I don't know much about audio stuff...

[Feronix]

Heya guys,

I was thinking of giving my audio set-up and upgrade. Currently, I am running my on-board audio to what I would call decent speakers (Wavemaster MX-3). The only headphone-like thing I have is a TurtleBeach X12 headset which is honestly not the best for sound. I only use it for Skype and voice recording though.

Still worth an upgrade and honestly, I would loooove to get a Xonar STX with Sennheiser HD380 Pros and a decent headphone amp and all that but that's simply not within the budget. Let's be honest though; Where I'm coming from everything is an upgrade

So I was looking at getting the following set of headphones:
Audio Technica ATH-M40fs

It's pretty much the only one in that price range, which I would consider 'Not too low price that the quality suffers, but also affordable'. They cost €66,- (50-55 pounds I guess?).

Does anyone have any experience with these? Are they any good? From what I've heard the brand is more than respectable, or would anyone suggest a different brand (A set of AKG headphones being €20 more).

I was going to use it with an Asus Xonar DX sound card (not the D2x). Would you recommend me to get:
- That sound card
- Cheap DAC Converter
- Cheap headphone amp




Does anyone also happen to know about microphones? I'm look for a bang for the buck studio condenser mic. The Behringer C-1 seems perfect for that.
This one does have an XLR connection, can I use it with this cable?:
http://www.bax-shop.nl/xlr-jack/pro...m-male-stereo-1.50-meter/product-details.html
I would then need to use a 6.3mm > 3.5mm adaptor to plug it into the PC.

I can also buy an XLR > 3.5mm Jack cable for twice the price of the other option, would you recommend that so that there are no adaptors that could mess with things?

There is also a slightly more expensive USB version of that microphone, the Behringer C-1U. Would you recommend that? Would there be any difference in quality?



Thanks for taking the time to read, and thank you in advance for those willing / being able to help out!

 

[Excalabur50]

The soundcard you have picked is a no brainer step up from on board as to the headphones and mic I guess they will be ok, and I have heard that these are supposed to be good Audio-Technica ATH-AD700X Open Air Headphones but I don't know if they are within your budget.
I have also heard that Blue Microphones are good so see if they have those and how much they are. Good luck with the shop and upgrade.

 

[Cru]

send james a PM and tell him to look in this thread. he helped me out quite a bit with some audio stuff yesterday. as tom said, he's the audiophile in here

 

[SPS]

From what I saw Kei post in a thread, it would seem he really knows his stuff when it comes to audio.

 

[Feronix]

The soundcard you have picked is a no brainer step up from on board as to the headphones and mic I guess they will be ok, and I have heard that these are supposed to be good Audio-Technica ATH-AD700X Open Air Headphones but I don't know if they are within your budget.
I have also heard that Blue Microphones are good so see if they have those and how much they are. Good luck with the shop and upgrade.

I've heard good things about the Asus cards, yes
The headphones you've mentioned may be really good but they are well over double the price and honestly I can't afford that. They are also open and I'm looking for a closed design.

I wanted to go for a Blue Mic, but same story: They are almost twice as expensive and both mics are condenser microphones. I've also heard that Blue Mics are usually a tad overpriced and I seriously doubt that I would notice any difference between the two (especially when I don't have them side-by-side to compare).

Thanks for the reply though

send james a PM and tell him to look in this thread. he helped me out quite a bit with some audio stuff yesterday. as tom said, he's the audiophile in here

Yeah, I was actually waiting for a reply from him! Gotta be patient though, I might PM him in the morning h34r:

From what I saw Kei post in a thread, it would seem he really knows his stuff when it comes to audio.

See above

 

[Mark3Max]

Hi Feronix,
I'm not sure what you want to get first , but coming from on board sound I'd probably get a decent sound card first. You can get a lower end Xonar card pretty cheap , like the DX you mentioned . But I'm not sure if you want a headset or headphones, I don't have much knowledge with either really. I was looking on Amazon and saw these http://www.amazon.com/Audio-Technica-ATH-M35-Closed-Back-Headphones/dp/B00242J0XU/ref=pd_sim_sbs_e_9 which are probably comparable to the ones you mentioned . But then you would probably need a mic also right? What is your budget and headset or headphones?

 

[Kei]

The behringer c-1 is a budget professional mic which needs phantom power. (48V) The easiest way to get around that is to buy the behringer ps400 phantom psu and run the mic to psu on a male-female xlr and from the psu to the sound card you can use the xlr-trs cable. It won't be perfect as mics like that need a half decent preamp with adjustable gain but it will work. I use a behringer ecm8000 calibration mic in the same way with my xonar essence. The best method would be an external audio interface which incorporates a dac, headphone amp, a few inputs and a mic preamp with phantom built in. They're excellent for recording but I have no idea what they're like for gaming.

Audio technica make good quality products, so their headphones should be pretty good. (I've heard good things from others about their mid range and high end stuff) I personally use akg at home and sennheiser and beyer at work so not got any personal experience.

 

[jamesriley94]

Kei knows a lot more than I do if I'm honest. Quite a lot of people here probably do actually - and I can't really help you at all with microphones.

Audio-technica do make very good quality products. I don't have any experience with the ones you've linked specifically, but reviews seem to say they're alright.

With external audio equipment, you need to be spending quite a lot of money to really make it worthwhile. To beat the STX externally, you need to be spending about £300+ on external DACs/amps which for consumers, I really don't think is worth it - and I think you'd be wasting your money a bit to be getting the DX and then a cheap amp and DAC. Also, the DX only outputs analogue (which you'd expect really) and so then buying an external DAC doesn't make too much sense really, as you'd just have to put it through your motherboard's optical out and bypass the soundcard anyway?

What will you be using the mic for? I'm guessing for proper recording?

I think you're better off pushing for the STX, as I reckon you'd regret it buying cheaper external devices just to save a £20/30 by the end of it - even if it means waiting for a bit longer to get it. As the headphones are only 60Ohm impedance, you'd actually get away with running those from onboard audio without an amp, so if you did want to buy them earlier and then wait for the STX, you could manage as a temporary solution.

 

[MrKambo]

on the headphone front id recommend Audio Techinca ATH-M50, honestly, they are amazing! the sound is so natural the bass isn't over powered and mids and highs sound very good!

Teamed up with a Xoner DGX for less then £150 thats a awesome setup without going uber Audiophile mode

Don't really know much about mic's so cant offer any advice here

 

[Feronix]

Pretty sure that the M40s are supposed to be better than M35s?

The behringer c-1 is a budget professional mic which needs phantom power. (48V) The easiest way to get around that is to buy the behringer ps400 phantom psu and run the mic to psu on a male-female xlr and from the psu to the sound card you can use the xlr-trs cable. It won't be perfect as mics like that need a half decent preamp with adjustable gain but it will work. I use a behringer ecm8000 calibration mic in the same way with my xonar essence. The best method would be an external audio interface which incorporates a dac, headphone amp, a few inputs and a mic preamp with phantom built in. They're excellent for recording but I have no idea what they're like for gaming.

Audio technica make good quality products, so their headphones should be pretty good. (I've heard good things from others about their mid range and high end stuff) I personally use akg at home and sennheiser and beyer at work so not got any personal experience.

Thanks for your reply!

I didn't even know that is needed a seperate PSU and honestly my budget is restricted and I wouldn't have a clue what I was doing. Do you reckon there would be any difference in audio quality from the USB version?

I'm guessing that the headphones I'm looking at are quite low-end compared to what the real audiophiles use. Couldn't find many reviews about it, but the ones I did find seemed pretty good and tbh... Anything is going to be better than the TurtleBeach X12s

Kei knows a lot more than I do if I'm honest. Quite a lot of people here probably do actually - and I can't really help you at all with microphones.

Audio-technica do make very good quality products. I don't have any experience with the ones you've linked specifically, but reviews seem to say they're alright.

With external audio equipment, you need to be spending quite a lot of money to really make it worthwhile. To beat the STX externally, you need to be spending about £300+ on external DACs/amps which for consumers, I really don't think is worth it - and I think you'd be wasting your money a bit to be getting the DX and then a cheap amp and DAC. Also, the DX only outputs analogue (which you'd expect really) and so then buying an external DAC doesn't make too much sense really, as you'd just have to put it through your motherboard's optical out and bypass the soundcard anyway?

What will you be using the mic for? I'm guessing for proper recording?

I think you're better off pushing for the STX, as I reckon you'd regret it buying cheaper external devices just to save a £20/30 by the end of it - even if it means waiting for a bit longer to get it. As the headphones are only 60Ohm impedance, you'd actually get away with running those from onboard audio without an amp, so if you did want to buy them earlier and then wait for the STX, you could manage as a temporary solution.

Thank you

Honestly like I said... I don't really know anything about amps and DACs so that's why I was asking.

I would love to get an STX, but a DX costs around €60,- and an STX costs €145,- That's a huge difference. I guess I could leave the sound card for now and save up for one but even then I doubt I'd be wanting to spend *that* much money on one seeing as I'm not really much of an audiophile.

Heck, for that money I can already buy a condenser mic + the headphones :huh:
What would you say about the D2X? It's still twice as expensive as the DX but I just can't see myself buying an STX anytime soon. I've heard that the only difference is the cover, but I seriously doubt that looking at the price difference.

Do you mean that with a proper sound card I most likely will not need an amp, nor DAC?

Yes, the mic will be used for proper voice recording (maybe a bit of acoustic guitar) and some Skype, although for just Skype I wouldn't need a 'professional' mic, obviously


@Kambo, I would love those but they are simply out of my budget. Thanks though
(Seems like they are more expensive over here than anywhere else in the world: €155,-)

 

[jamesriley94]

The STX is worth the money though.

The DX and D2X don't have particularly good DACs in them, nor do they have any sort of headphone amp. They're meant mainly for speakers.

The D2X isn't worth it over the DX anyway - the only noticeable difference is in aesthetics.

If you were using headphones on the DX/D2X, you should have an amp (not actually needed as I said before, but I'd want one personally). On the STX however, as it has a good quality built in DAC and amplifier, you don't need to buy anything else.

I'm running my STX with DT770s and the audio quality is superb. You do need to spend a lot of money on external solutions to get near the quality of the STX, and buying cheap amps will just mean you'll end up with static/crackling when you do turn the volume up. On the STX, I can quite easily put the amp setting up to maximum, and with full volume (assuming the quality of the audio is decent) and still not have any real loss in audio quality (even though it is pretty deafening at those levels).

As others have said - as you're coming from on board audio, and using Turtle Beaches too - you'd be happy with the quality increase from pretty much any soundcard/headphone combo you buy, and the difference will be huge too... But at the same time, the difference between the DX and STX for quality, especially at high volume levels will be just as big.

 

[Kei]

I've not got any experience with usb mics as they aren't used at work. AFAIK, it might work ok for your purposes. The downside to USB mics is that they are a secondary device. The consequence of that is that in most hosts you will be unable to play a track, hear it, and record with the USB mic. You can usually select only one device for recording and playback, and the mic cannot output.

The behringer ps400 mini phantom supply is pretty cheap (~£15) and it'll work as you wanted. It also has the advantage that you can use it with other mics if you upgrade to a better mic or get a different type in the future.

 

[Feronix]

The STX is worth the money though.

The DX and D2X don't have particularly good DACs in them, nor do they have any sort of headphone amp. They're meant mainly for speakers.

The D2X isn't worth it over the DX anyway - the only noticeable difference is in aesthetics.

If you were using headphones on the DX/D2X, you should have an amp (not actually needed as I said before, but I'd want one personally). On the STX however, as it has a good quality built in DAC and amplifier, you don't need to buy anything else.

I'm running my STX with DT770s and the audio quality is superb. You do need to spend a lot of money on external solutions to get near the quality of the STX, and buying cheap amps will just mean you'll end up with static/crackling when you do turn the volume up. On the STX, I can quite easily put the amp setting up to maximum, and with full volume (assuming the quality of the audio is decent) and still not have any real loss in audio quality (even though it is pretty deafening at those levels).

As others have said - as you're coming from on board audio, and using Turtle Beaches too - you'd be happy with the quality increase from pretty much any soundcard/headphone combo you buy, and the difference will be huge too... But at the same time, the difference between the DX and STX for quality, especially at high volume levels will be just as big.

You're making it really tempting for me mate... I hate you :lol:

Guess I can always buy the other stuff first and then look around if I can find a cheap used STX somewhere. Can't be that much wrong with used sound cards, can there? (Would obviously test it before buying).

Yeah, I guess anything is an upgrade and I am on a budget but that doesn't mean that I'd like like to have a better price/performance ratio. As long as that price doesn't get too high (Like Xonar STX + ATH-M50 + Blue Yeti )

There's little point in saving €30-40 now and then spending 200+ or buying an STX after all at a later date.

I've not got any experience with usb mics as they aren't used at work. AFAIK, it might work ok for your purposes. The downside to USB mics is that they are a secondary device. The consequence of that is that in most hosts you will be unable to play a track, hear it, and record with the USB mic. You can usually select only one device for recording and playback, and the mic cannot output.

The behringer ps400 mini phantom supply is pretty cheap (~£15) and it'll work as you wanted. It also has the advantage that you can use it with other mics if you upgrade to a better mic or get a different type in the future.

Are you saying that I wouldn't be able to use the USB mic and speakers/headphones at the same time? Cause I'll just be plugging it straight into my computer and no other audio components so that shouldn't be a problem?

Oh, I expected the PSU to cost more. I couldn't find it in the shop at first but I see it now. Can I just go Mic > PS400 > XLR to 3.5mm Jack / RCA > Sound card? Also, will a standard 3.5mm Jack cause any loss in audio quality?

You said that I can then also upgrade to better mics, will the PS400 provide enough power, even for more high-end microphones?]

Edit; Well, I just found this. Seems pretty convenient:
http://www.bax-shop.nl/phantom-powe...ofoon-fantoomvoeding-set/product-details.html

 

[Kei]

Phantom is a standard of +48V, so it can be used with any mic that needs it. (even insanely expensive professional stuff) The 12V option is for lesser equipment. (not come across anything that uses 12V so far

You can go mic > XLR male to XLR female > PS400 > XLR/3.5mmTRS > Sound card Using a 3.5mm jack won't cause a problem.

The problems with the budget usb mics comes from poor software support. If you have a half decent sound card, you are only dependant upon it for all your I/O's. With things like USB headsets and USB mics, you separate it all out and end up using different drivers for each bit of kit, which will always cause headaches, especially when you throw additional software and ASIO/WASAPI into the mix. I'm not 100% certain on the will and won't work issues with usb mics though, but i see it as more logical to stick with the mic being separate to the preamp and PC.

The old creative audigy and live drive 5.25" bays used to have microphone preamps built into them, allowing you to adjust the gain with a knob, shame you can't get this on any of the xonars. Something like one of these would do the job without the need for a sound card or a phantom supply as it all comes built in. (headphone amp and all) True the dac/adc in it or a similar behringer or samson unit aren't as good as an xonar STX or a creative ZXR, they are still quite an improvement on standard on board audio solutions. (plus i reckon you would have a very hard time telling the difference between it and something better as the mic will be the weak link in the chain anyway)

 

[jamesriley94]

I do think it's worth pointing out - the STX (and many of the audio devices we've recommended) will only support stereo audio out to speakers - and so you won't be able to use the 2.1 system you currently have.

I've always hated 2.1 or any surround sound system any way to be honest - but still worth bearing in mind.

 

[Feronix]

Phantom is a standard of +48V, so it can be used with any mic that needs it. (even insanely expensive professional stuff) The 12V option is for lesser equipment. (not come across anything that uses 12V so far

You can go mic > XLR male to XLR female > PS400 > XLR/3.5mmTRS > Sound card Using a 3.5mm jack won't cause a problem.

The problems with the budget usb mics comes from poor software support. If you have a half decent sound card, you are only dependant upon it for all your I/O's. With things like USB headsets and USB mics, you separate it all out and end up using different drivers for each bit of kit, which will always cause headaches, especially when you throw additional software and ASIO/WASAPI into the mix. I'm not 100% certain on the will and won't work issues with usb mics though, but i see it as more logical to stick with the mic being separate to the preamp and PC.

The old creative audigy and live drive 5.25" bays used to have microphone preamps built into them, allowing you to adjust the gain with a knob, shame you can't get this on any of the xonars. Something like one of these would do the job without the need for a sound card or a phantom supply as it all comes built in. (headphone amp and all) True the dac/adc in it or a similar behringer or samson unit aren't as good as an xonar STX or a creative ZXR, they are still quite an improvement on standard on board audio solutions. (plus i reckon you would have a very hard time telling the difference between it and something better as the mic will be the weak link in the chain anyway)

That's good to know!

I get what you mean, I would rather have it go straight to the source than needing software to do that for me. Have read about many sound cards that were held back because of bad drivers, would not surprised if it's similar for microphones.

Do headphones like the MTH-M40fs require any drivers as well or is this just plug & play as you'd expect?

I'm not really looking for anything to fill up my 5.25" bays and I'd really like to stick to Asus That said, running an awful lot of stuff externally is not all that pretty either. I think I'm just go going C-1 > XLR cable> Phantom PS400 > XLR to 3.5mm Jack > PC for now.

Thanks for all the help so far

I do think it's worth pointing out - the STX (and many of the audio devices we've recommended) will only support stereo audio out to speakers - and so you won't be able to use the 2.1 system you currently have.

I've always hated 2.1 or any surround sound system any way to be honest - but still worth bearing in mind.

Oh... Well shit.

That's a disappointment for me tbh. I don't know if this is because my current speakers were designed to work with a sub but when I turn it off, the sound is really flat. I don't mean flat as in 'exactly how it's supposed to be' but I mean flat as in 'not very rich sound'. Why do you think that would be?

Better question: Do you think that could be solved by replacing my speakers with a cheap 'studio monitor' set like this:
http://www.bax-shop.nl/dj-studio-mo...e-digitale-monitoren-set/product-details.html

Or this:
http://www.bax-shop.nl/dj-studio-mo...ssieve-monitor-set-van-2/product-details.html

Also, what's the difference between passive and active?
And just wondering, but why exactly do you hate 2.1 systems?

Thank you too, for all the help so far

 

[jamesriley94]

The headphones don't need drivers no - they just plug straight in.


You need the active speakers. Active means they get power (and are amplified) by a cable from the speakers into the wall. Passive means you need an additional amp to power them (and not the one from the STX, a proper external amplifier or Hifi).

I had 2.1 speakers because I don't think you get as good quality out of them. The manufacturers have to try and balance the bass and trebles/mids from 2 different locations, and as you put your sub and monitors in different places, you'll never get a truly flat, balanced sound. Especially if you're buying a cheaper 2.1 system, as most of those are aimed at the generations of people who just listen to dubstep and similar genres and so are only really bothered about the bass anyway - so most of them have incredibly high bass levels in relation to the mids/trebles.

Same with 5.1 and 7.1 really - although they do have more of a purpose of surround sound, but they're more for films than music - and I just think they're too much effort to set up!

Another option would be finding a cheap second hand hifi and getting bookshelf monitors. Find something local and you can get some incredible deals. My audio setup for speakers (sony micro hifi and technics speakers) only cost about £20 in total, and to beat that buying new you'd be looking at spending over £150/200.

 

[Feronix]

Totally get your point! I'd buy used monitors but since I'm a noob I'd have no idea what I'm buying. Besides, the ones that I linked don't exactly break the bank, do they?

I also want to *try* to keep my set-up as clean as possible and I don't think that adding even more stuff will help.

I personally don't need that much bass. I mainly listen to alt rock, punk, metal, metalcore and post hardcore so that shouldn't be much of an issue. However, I would like to have at least a little bass, not like my speakers sound now with the sub turned off.

Is this because my speakers were designed to work with the sub, and I can expect the monitors to sound better?

Also, if I were to buy the active set that I just linked, do I need anything else or can I just plug it straight into the PC/Sound card?

 

[jamesriley94]

Totally get your point! I'd buy used monitors but since I'm a noob I'd have no idea what I'm buying. Besides, the ones that I linked don't exactly break the bank, do they?

I also want to *try* to keep my set-up as clean as possible and I don't think that adding even more stuff will help.

I personally don't need that much bass. I mainly listen to alt rock, punk, metal, metalcore and post hardcore so that shouldn't be much of an issue. However, I would like to have at least a little bass, not like my speakers sound now with the sub turned off.

Is this because my speakers were designed to work with the sub, and I can expect the monitors to sound better?

Also, if I were to buy the active set that I just linked, do I need anything else or can I just plug it straight into the PC/Sound card?

The ones you've linked should be fine really. I'm not personally that into speakers - it's a lot harder to appreciate audio quality over speakers than it is with headphones IMO.

If you turn your sub off - you wouldn't really be getting any bass through, and it should sound kind of tinny I guess.

You can plug the active set directly into your soundcard/PC and they will work fine yes. I'm not sure what connection they have, either 3.5mm or RCA... If RCA then they'll plug straight into the back of the STX, if 3.5mm, the STX comes with an RCA to 3.5mm adapter anyway.

 

[Feronix]

The ones you've linked should be fine really. I'm not personally that into speakers - it's a lot harder to appreciate audio quality over speakers than it is with headphones IMO.

If you turn your sub off - you wouldn't really be getting any bass through, and it should sound kind of tinny I guess.

You can plug the active set directly into your soundcard/PC and they will work fine yes. I'm not sure what connection they have, either 3.5mm or RCA... If RCA then they'll plug straight into the back of the STX, if 3.5mm, the STX comes with an RCA to 3.5mm adapter anyway.

Yeah, suppose they are better than my €40,- 2.1 set anyway, which I already thought was a tad expensive at the time :lol:

It does sound 'tinny'. I'm assuming that with the monitors there would at least be getting some base through and it won't sound quite as flat as this?

Lastly: Can I have the speakers *and* headphones plugged in and switch between the two within Windows?