Der8auer successfully delids Intel's 12-18 core Skylake-X CPUs

[Kaapstad]

I've put forward more facts than you have. Far more.

Nice swerve in the ending sentence though. Yes, trying to get out of it by saying that nobody has the equipment to detect it is a good dodge.

The fact is that you can not dispute what I am saying. Not with any facts. And copying and pasting some one else's opinion does not get you off the hook either.

I'm telling you that I have had 30 years of electronics experience. At least that. I built my ZX80 with my uncle when I was 7, and was taking apart electronic items long before that. My shed was full of them.

So I think I know a wee bit more about solder, its properties and how it reacts than you do. AMD obviously do too. And Intel, when it suits them.

You've put forward your "facts" and I have disputed them. I asked you a simple question. Not even more than one line. you can not answer it because you do not know the answer, do you?

Therefore there is no argument. I politely repeated my question three times, each time you chose to ignore it and then after you had some time to mull it over you say "Nobody has the equipment to check".

Let me reiterate for you, just in case you do not understand electronics (which I am slowly beginning to think you know naff all) soldering a CPU does not create an electrical connection. It's simply flux and tin. If it cracks on the die and cracks enough to cause a problem (like if the flux has perished, as it does and this is why dry joints occur) then you would see an instant rocket in temps. Instant. Once that connection is gone your CPU would simply overheat.

And I have seen no cases of that ever with a soldered CPU. I have been on the internet since 1997 and I have been buying and reading computer mags since I was about 8, and not once have I ever seen a feature about solder on a CPU failing, or for that matter even being a problem. Ever. Not once.



How can you even so much as ponder starting a debate over something using some one else as cover? if you don't know what you are talking about you're better off staying out of it, no?

Go and ask him (seeing as you are using him as your go to) why AMD can solder Ryzen. Not that I trust him of course, given he looks about half my age. And when he gives you an answer bring it here. Let's see if he can explain it, because you obviously can't.

Apart from the fact that you are very rude you have also demonstrated that you don't know as much about the subject as you think you do (try re reading your post).

I would also like to point out that the engineers who work for intel are not idiots and do have a reputation to uphold so they are not going to offer falsehoods that can be challenged by their peers, if they say there is a problem with solder they genuinely believe it.

I am not going to post anymore in this thread as it is totally pointless except to state that people far more qualified than you or me have said there is a problem with solder or putting it another way you are wrong.

 

[AlienALX]

Apart from the fact that you are very rude you have also demonstrated that you don't know as much about the subject as you think you do (try re reading your post).

I would also like to point out that the engineers who work for intel are not idiots and do have a reputation to uphold so they are not going to offer falsehoods that can be challenged by their peers, if they say there is a problem with solder they genuinely believe it.

I am not going to post anymore in this thread as it is totally pointless except to state that people far more qualified than you or me have said there is a problem with solder or putting it another way you are wrong.

I told you about your oxy morons at the start of this thread. Let me put it simply for you.

You are wasting your time. Simply because -

1. Intel solder their Xeons which are the same CPUs as their new ones.
2. AMD have been soldering away for years and have never had a problem.
3. As we have discussed, many CPUs have been soldered in the past and there was never an issue with it.

So as much as Der8auer wants to go on and on about indium and all of the other metals (which is educational) his article is titled "The truth about CPU soldering".

In that article he explains why Intel can not solder their CPUs. He even draws diagrams showing why it is bad. However, he does not explain why Intel solder all of their Xeon range, and everything before and leading up to Sandybridge. Nor does he explain why AMD do it all of the time and have no issues.

I don't get why you are leaning on him so heavily to debate this for you, when I have pointed out over and over why his logic, and thus his information, is flawed.

The argument ended with my question. As I said you to you can not answer it, instead you resorted to petulance. And you tell me I am rude. I'm not rude, I haven't been rude to you once during this thread. Trust me, if I was I would be on a ban. I have had plenty before for being rude.

What he needs to do (and you can tell him this yourself if you like) is revisit his article and update it with modern information, as well as information from the whole picture. Like how have they gotten away with soldering Xeons for so long? how is it that Westmere Xeons went up to 12 threads and overclocked like stink (and were soldered) and do not crack.

I have also explained to you that even if the solder cracks it will still be in contact, given it's a very tight gap. They use the solder to bridge the gap between the CPU die and the IHS. If it cracked that does not mean it automatically moves out of the way. It is put under pressure when you hook up a cooler to it (and presses it down onto the pins, with some force, hence why Skylakes bend if you use too strong a mount) and thus that metal would literally need to get up and walk away to cause any serious thermal issues.

Intel said the same thing Der8auer says. He obviously believed them. I don't.

 

[Wraith]

It's nothing more than yield as far as I can tell, putting two and two together.. with die shrinkages it's safer to go TIM rather than solder as solder mentioned in Der8uers write up causes unnecessary tension in the manufacturing process.

larger die = more surface (AMD have always had large dies.)

Also on another note.. if you look back over the years of the Intel TIM Vs Solder debate, it seems it's more to do with TDP, when below 100W TDP Intel favours Paste.

 

[NeverBackDown]

It's nothing more than yield as far as I can tell, putting two and two together.. with die shrinkages it's safer to go TIM rather than solder as solder mentioned in Der8uers write up causes unnecessary tension in the manufacturing process.

larger die = more surface (AMD have always had large dies.)

Also on another note.. if you look back over the years of the Intel TIM Vs Solder debate, it seems it's more to do with TDP, when below 100W TDP Intel favours Paste.

AMD have historically used smaller dies. I'm not sure about against Intel but against Nvidia they certainly have until only recently. So that statement is only half true afaik.
My only nit-pick.


I do think it's silly that we are getting a little over the top with this. Fact of the matter is solder can crack yes. But will it? Not for a very very long time. Is it more expensive? Yes. Worth it? Well I'd say yes from a delidding standpoint and how effective they are. But Intel doesn't have heat issues, so from there point of view, it's not worth the expensive solder.

What I do think is a lame argument is saying you aren't supposed to OC Intel chips... Um what? WTH is the "k" sku for then? Intel call it the dedicated OC chip. So using that against Intel and using it as a basis for they should use solder is a logically ok argument. However I still don't think it warrants the use of solder because they don't want you to go nuts with there chips to ruin them. Only the dedicated enthusiast would go farther to void warranty.

So yeah we'd love if they used solder. But they don't and it doesn't hurt there performance. So does it really matter? Do we want more expensive CPUs? I don't.

 

[Dawelio]

Every AMD CPU is soldered from recent memory and I am sure even before the Phenom's. They are fine.

Old Intel chips were soldered. They all still run. I have multiple CPUs in old machines, they still work. Temps aren't an issue on any of them as far as I can tell because they don't auto shut off. No point in trying to get temp software on them since they are so slow. But the point is, soldered is better and will far outlast any sane usage from a CPU.

Oh my god, this thread has gone off rails. What NBD wrote above is just everything that is needed to say and should be the end of it.

Soldering is better for a reason and AMD also decided to go with soldering on their Ryzen CPUs for a reason. So this should be the end of it.

 

[AlienALX]

It's nothing more than yield as far as I can tell, putting two and two together.. with die shrinkages it's safer to go TIM rather than solder as solder mentioned in Der8uers write up causes unnecessary tension in the manufacturing process.

larger die = more surface (AMD have always had large dies.)

Also on another note.. if you look back over the years of the Intel TIM Vs Solder debate, it seems it's more to do with TDP, when below 100W TDP Intel favours Paste.

That's a good point but at the end of the day if AMD can do it and then sell the equivalent performance for half the price and still make a profit then Intel could do it too.

Note though, could. They would rather be cheap and shave pennies off of the quality to put in the piggy bank.

 

[WYP]

That's a good point but at the end of the day if AMD can do it and then sell the equivalent performance for half the price and still make a profit then Intel could do it too.

Note though, could. They would rather be cheap and shave pennies off of the quality to put in the piggy bank.

Well, the response to that is fairly simple, look at the temperatures that Ryzen runs at. The CPU has a thermal cut off of around 70 degrees, do you think AMD could afford not to solder their Ryzen chips?

Perhaps for AMD, it isn't a matter of cost, it is a matter of having enough CPUs that run well. Just imagine how hard Ryzen would be to run or overclock if the CPU wasn't soldered.

The question is whether AMD would avoid using thermal paste if they didn't need to? None of us works for either company so any thoughts on the reasons for it are just opinions, regardless of how well informed the person thinks they are.

 

[Dawelio]

Well, the response to that is fairly simple, look at the temperatures that Ryzen runs at. The CPU has a thermal cut off of around 70 degrees, do you think AMD could afford not to solder their Ryzen chips?

Perhaps for AMD, it isn't a matter of cost, it is a matter of having enough CPUs that run well. Just imagine how hard Ryzen would be to run or overclock if the CPU wasn't soldered.

The question is whether AMD would avoid using thermal paste if they didn't need to? None of us works for either company so any thoughts on the reasons for it are just opinions, regardless of how well informed the person thinks they are.

Damn, your posts are always spot on dude.

 

[AngryGoldfish]

Damn, your posts are always spot on dude.

It's just a shame he has so spelling mistakes.

 

[NeverBackDown]

Well, the response to that is fairly simple, look at the temperatures that Ryzen runs at. The CPU has a thermal cut off of around 70 degrees, do you think AMD could afford not to solder their Ryzen chips?

Perhaps for AMD, it isn't a matter of cost, it is a matter of having enough CPUs that run well. Just imagine how hard Ryzen would be to run or overclock if the CPU wasn't soldered.

The question is whether AMD would avoid using thermal paste if they didn't need to? None of us works for either company so any thoughts on the reasons for it are just opinions, regardless of how well informed the person thinks they are.

TBF the only person I have seen reporting a 70C shutoff point is Tom. No one else mentions it. So I do not agree with your argument until I see it more widely reported and/or I get one myself. Also since they fixed the 20C offset in software, it would seemingly be less of an issue.
On the other hand, your argument is kinda flawed because even if it was true at 70C shut off, then why would AMD give a 20C offset? You're only giving the CPU 50C of room to work with and that's best case whereas in reality it's more like 20-30C of wiggle room since few people will have ambient/idle temps low enough to give 50C of room.

Not saying you guys are misreporting anything. It's just I've never agreed with that 70C shutoff point since this is the only place to mention it.

 

[AlienALX]

Well, the response to that is fairly simple, look at the temperatures that Ryzen runs at. The CPU has a thermal cut off of around 70 degrees, do you think AMD could afford not to solder their Ryzen chips?

Perhaps for AMD, it isn't a matter of cost, it is a matter of having enough CPUs that run well. Just imagine how hard Ryzen would be to run or overclock if the CPU wasn't soldered.

The question is whether AMD would avoid using thermal paste if they didn't need to? None of us works for either company so any thoughts on the reasons for it are just opinions, regardless of how well informed the person thinks they are.

Then how come they launched Ryzen so cheaply when they didn't have to? I know, mindshare/land grab and all that but they must be making profit.

Der8auer goes on about how expensive indium and other precious metals are. Yet, AMD still sell a £270 8 core CPU with a cooler (the 1700) and the 1600 that also comes with a cooler and uses the same amount of solder for less than £200.

And of course the 1200, which is £99 and comes with a cooler and also uses solder.

Intel must me nickel and diming. Otherwise why make Skylake CPUs thinner?

 

[Warchild]

No, just over 30 years of experience with electronics and stuff. And soldering of course. I spent the best part of five years soldering for about 8 hours a day.

I've seen you argue with people before. You take one thing and then hold onto it like a dog with a bone, completely ignoring all of the facts around you. So, given that is the case answer my question.

Why is it that AMD have soldered CPUs ever since the first dual core and you've never had issues.

There. One question.

As for my experience with electronics?

https://forum.overclock3d.net/showthread.php?t=77462&page=8

There you go. Make sure you read it all of course, especially the bit where I -

1. Took a power supply apart and
2. Completely rewired it from the inside out.

The stereo has been on for 24 hours a day since and is still running fine.

That's electrical not electronic hehe There is a big difference between the two.

As for Indium, I don't think its anywhere near as expensive as it used to be, so not sure why he would say that.

 

[AlienALX]

That's electrical not electronic hehe There is a big difference between the two.

It's both. As in my experience, with both. As for the link? taking apart a power supply and rewiring it requires a lot of knowledge of both. Electrical experience is wiring houses, fitting ceiling fans and so on. Dumb objects, not objects like car head units which are electronic.

 

[Warchild]

It's both. As in my experience, with both. As for the link? taking apart a power supply and rewiring it requires a lot of knowledge of both. Electrical experience is wiring houses, fitting ceiling fans and so on. Dumb objects, not objects like car head units which are electronic.

AlienALX its not. Electrical is the regulation, manual control, and Generation, UTilization and measurement. in other words V=IR

Electronic put simple is all about controlling electrons. Its Automatic control which is pretty much transistors etc. Now there is a link between the two by means of relays, but rewiring a psu is nothing to do with electronics.

AC input > Transformer > Rectifier > Filter > regulator > DC Output

Anyway I wanted to quote something you said earlier but couldnt find it.

You mentioned something like "not that i trust the guy when he looks half my age". That is the most absurd, immature and ridiculous comment. It's like me saying, I won't believe anything you say because you are a senile old, deceprid waste of oxygen. Of course totally not true (and only used as an example), but talk about judging a book by its cover in the worst sense...

It really P***ed me off people who made comments like that. I was a 21yr old RAF officer with a master in electrical and electronic engineering. I had to put up with it all the time from people who thought they knew more than me.... derailed a little there

I just don't understand why you have to get so rude in posts. You did exactly the same with me in another thread on the very same subject. It's just a shame Kaapstad had to make a comment on score because that made him no better.


But on the topic.

Surely the whole Solder vs TIM nonsense comes down to the architecture of the CPU? I mean its all good to use liquid metal under my IHS but maybe factory solder could over time cause minor stress dmg? IT's going to be one of those things we will never prove, simply because you would need to test this over a number of years in real world scenarios, not min/maxing cycles in short spans. If AMD can get away with it, then fantastic, let Intel sweat over it instead of us.

 

[AlienALX]

I'm just a firm believer in experience. In the field experience, not knowledge. They are very different things. There is a reason why people start where they do in life and work their way up a ladder. Computers, car stereos, amplifiers and so on are electronics. They are electronic items.

Why am I rude? do you mean why am I deliberately rude? quite simple, when some one talks to me rudely I will respond in kind. Simple as that.

Now if you are asking me as to why I may come across as rude which is entirely different? because quite simply I think, work and speak in logic. And logic doesn't pander to people or kiss their rectum to make them feel better. That's how it is for most Aspies and people on the spectrum. However, I can only remember one thing I said in this thread that was deliberately rude because the debate was going nowhere.

Some one posts something to me that is supposed to be the 100% truth and be all and end all of soldering on CPUs. However, I read that "article" in its entirety and it was full of holes and contradictions. I immediately pointed this out (asking how he managed to solder a 6700k and see a 18c drop and it be awesome on air cooling etc) and the brick wall went up. All of a sudden he doesn't want to talk about logic or holes in the article he wants to keep repeating himself.

So I asked him the same question three times. No answer. Eventually we got an excuse, but that wasn't an answer.

If it comes down to the architecture of the CPU then why does Intel solder exactly the same technology and call it a Xeon?

So as to why I may have come across as rude in this thread? maybe because people need to stop making excuses for some one that is ripping them off. See, that annoys me.

It would be like a fat person saying "Well my Mars bar has shrunk to half the size, it still costs the same 49p, but the candy company are doing it to reduce the calories to make me thinner ! yay for them ! aren't they awesome? how thoughtful etc etc".

BS is BS. And there is plenty of it from Intel. Every time they do something that is a blatant slap in the face you have people running along to to excuse it. When it's quite obvious to any one with an IQ as high as a pea that they are doing it to screw more money out of people. Cutting corners, cheaping out.

You've even got some guy in this thread debating by proxy, but wants to buy a Ryzen 1700.

LOL.

 

[Warchild]

I'm just a firm believer in experience. In the field experience, not knowledge. They are very different things. There is a reason why people start where they do in life and work their way up a ladder. Computers, car stereos, amplifiers and so on are electronics. They are electronic items.

Why am I rude? do you mean why am I deliberately rude? quite simple, when some one talks to me rudely I will respond in kind. Simple as that.

Now if you are asking me as to why I may come across as rude which is entirely different? because quite simply I think, work and speak in logic. And logic doesn't pander to people or kiss their rectum to make them feel better. That's how it is for most Aspies and people on the spectrum. However, I can only remember one thing I said in this thread that was deliberately rude because the debate was going nowhere.

Some one posts something to me that is supposed to be the 100% truth and be all and end all of soldering on CPUs. However, I read that "article" in its entirety and it was full of holes and contradictions. I immediately pointed this out (asking how he managed to solder a 6700k and see a 18c drop and it be awesome on air cooling etc) and the brick wall went up. All of a sudden he doesn't want to talk about logic or holes in the article he wants to keep repeating himself.

So I asked him the same question three times. No answer. Eventually we got an excuse, but that wasn't an answer.

If it comes down to the architecture of the CPU then why does Intel solder exactly the same technology and call it a Xeon?

So as to why I may have come across as rude in this thread? maybe because people need to stop making excuses for some one that is ripping them off. See, that annoys me.

It would be like a fat person saying "Well my Mars bar has shrunk to half the size, it still costs the same 49p, but the candy company are doing it to reduce the calories to make me thinner ! yay for them ! aren't they awesome? how thoughtful etc etc".

BS is BS. And there is plenty of it from Intel. Every time they do something that is a blatant slap in the face you have people running along to to excuse it. When it's quite obvious to any one with an IQ as high as a pea that they are doing it to screw more money out of people. Cutting corners, cheaping out.

You've even got some guy in this thread debating by proxy, but wants to buy a Ryzen 1700.

LOL.

I won't bother commenting on the electrical vs electronic thing because that will probably trail off endlessly with you.

As for debating by proxy. What is wrong with that? Kaapstad believes Debauer is a reputable source and is quoting his source. If anything he is debating correctly. If you argue something, you want facts to back it up. Who said it had to be the top Intel Scientists or AMD secret metallurgy society? He gave posts with info that are of good content. While I am not taking sides, you haven't provided anything to back up your statements.

Debauer has enough experience, and knowledge to make his points worth considering. You don't have to accept them. To think otherwise is just naive.

Personally I don't believe the average user would be affected by result of solder thermal cycling, but it doesn't mean it won't happen.

Besides all this, I thought you were going to stop making comments in this thread pages ago!