Budget PC, is it OK?

[flashback_rtk]

Hello,

I am going to build a PC really soon. I have already chosen all the components, I am just waiting for the GPU to be in stock. Since I have to wait, some doubts I had about the motherboard made me find this sub forum (I already knew overclock3d.net).

The computer has to be a budget PC. I'd rather spend no more than 500€, the OK range would be 450-500. Second, gaming is not the first priority. Almost every benchmark or build questions I have found on the internet are mainly focused on gaming performance. Even though I want to game with this computer it's a general use computer. I also want to use it for some audio projects (audio/music mixing/production/post-production). I would like to prioritize the audio work over everything else. Even though I know I won't be getting a lot of performance from a budget computer, the projects I will be working on for now are not very heavy.

I wanted to ask here because I have asked on different forums regarding the processors, the audio use and everything... but you seem to be a lot more experienced in raw computer builds. So I am asking here to see if any of you can recommend something better or spot a flaw in my build. Thanks in advance. Here's the build:

MB: MSI Z77A-G43 or ASRock Z77-Pro 3 (which one is better, specially in build quality? I suppose the MSI)
CPU: Intel Core i3-3220 3,3 Ghz Ivy Bridge
CPU Fan: Arctic Cooling Alpine 11 Plus
RAM: 2x4GB G.Skill Ares 1600 Mhz DDR3
GPU: Sapphire Radeon 6570 1GB
HDD: WD 1TB SATA3
Case: Nox NX1
PSU: Cooler Master Elite Power 500W

I think I am not forgetting anything important. I will use a cheap DVD writer, put an extra fan to the case and little foam for the case legs. I know I would improve a lot with a SSD but that's for a future upgrade.

What do you think about it? Thanks in advance.

 

[Master&Puppet]

You have made some good selections. This is what I'd suggest:

Obviously it is in £s but it's not far off.
I've dropped the cpu cooler (can be bought later with an SSD) and the size of the PSU to save money. Then I've got a fast HDD to help with running games. I've put in the bare minimum of what can be described as a case. Should do the job.

Basically I've re-focused the budget to get a better GPU. That's where the money needs to be spent for the gaming side of things.

This intel CPU is still very decent and will handle everyday use easily. The only way to help with the audio work would be to upgrade the CPU which will basically erode the GPU budget to such an extent that you might as well not get one! The next CPUs up to choose from for your uses would be the FX range of AMD processors namely the FX6300 and 8350.

 

[SavageCupcake]

Looks good mate except you really wont play anything with that gpu. i daresay things like tf2 would struggle but for a general use pc its fine

 

[CPMFW]

You have made some good selections. This is what I'd suggest:

good choice

 

[flashback_rtk]

Hello,

First of all thank you for the replies.

I like the changes you made to the build, but unfortunately it's way off the budget. The GPU is not that important for now, I am not gonna game that much. The minimum I wanted in performance was at least the same as the IGP found in the AMD A10-5800K APU, and the HD 6570 is a bit more powerful. If I wanted to focus more on gaming on this budget I would go for an HD 7770 and maybe a slightly slower processor. Also the case, while not spending a lot, is quite important for me. I remember my very old PC didn't have very good ventilation and it became really noisy. Plus, the CPU fan is only 11€. For now I am better spending here and in the processor than in the GPU (I think).

What I am having doubts with is the motherboard. Why did you choose the MSI one over the ASRock one. Also, I have chosen a bit cheaper PSU (Cooler Master Elite Power 500W): Is the one you chose a lot better/worth it? Am I left with a worse/noisier/less protected PSU if I choose the Cooler Master one? Finally, the HDDs I have looked at are WD Caviar Green. In your setup there's Caviar Black, which is more expensive. What is the difference?

Thanks for your help!

 

[TheCMStormStryker]

Did somebody forget their ASUS Xonar Sound card? If you're doing audio production you're definitely not going to stick with then onboard audio are you? The sound card can be a relatively small price with a a huge benefit in sound quality! As far as motherboards go, I would go for the MSI for quality reasons.
Thanks, TheCMStormStryker

 

[Deejeta]

What recording program do you intend to use?
Go for the best cpu you can get, & use the integrated gpu. Whether it be an a10 or ivy bridge. Just remember to make use of some fast ram if you get the AMD.
Green drives are slower than black, but noisier. Imho, get a large ssd (for os, programs and audio files etc your working with), and a cheap 1gb green drive for backup.
Some asrock board have 1394 connectivity as well as far as i remember, that is if its something you are looking for in a system.

 

[Josh Weston]

Yeah, I don't really see why you'd need a dedicated graphics card at all, if you're not that interested in gaming. I played games on my Intel HD4000 for a little while and was really, really impressed. Games like COD4, Source based games, stuff like Borderlands etc. - if you turn the settings down a little you can easily play on the iGPU alone.
Use the saved money to buy a 128GB Crucial M4/Samsung 830 and buy a WD Green drive for storage.

If you want to game in the future then you can buy something more substantial.

 

[flashback_rtk]

Did somebody forget their ASUS Xonar Sound card? If you're doing audio production you're definitely not going to stick with then onboard audio are you? The sound card can be a relatively small price with a a huge benefit in sound quality! As far as motherboards go, I would go for the MSI for quality reasons.
Thanks, TheCMStormStryker

I didn't forget a sound card. The thing is that the sound interface is gonna be in another gear investment, and will surely be something usb/firewire (i need a pci card for that but I think I have it at home) or maybe PCI, with some ins and outs and at least one mic preamp. Anyway, the sound card you suggest is not that expensive and maybe it's a lot better to have that than the integrated sound even for small projetcts... I'll think about it. As for the motherboard, did you ever try an ASRock one? To me it seems that the MSI is higher quality but for that I would like to hold them both (I think they won't let me do that in an online store)

What recording program do you intend to use?
Go for the best cpu you can get, & use the integrated gpu. Whether it be an a10 or ivy bridge. Just remember to make use of some fast ram if you get the AMD.
Green drives are slower than black, but noisier. Imho, get a large ssd (for os, programs and audio files etc your working with), and a cheap 1gb green drive for backup.
Some asrock board have 1394 connectivity as well as far as i remember, that is if its something you are looking for in a system.

Yeah, I don't really see why you'd need a dedicated graphics card at all, if you're not that interested in gaming. I played games on my Intel HD4000 for a little while and was really, really impressed. Games like COD4, Source based games, stuff like Borderlands etc. - if you turn the settings down a little you can easily play on the iGPU alone.
Use the saved money to buy a 128GB Crucial M4/Samsung 830 and buy a WD Green drive for storage.

If you want to game in the future then you can buy something more substantial.

For now I would be using Adobe Audition, Ableton Live and Cubase. Anyway I would like to experiment with some more. Also I am a linux user. I'm gonna have a Windows partition for all the DAW software but I would also like to try DAW configurations on linux and see how they perform.

If I was not gonna buy a GPU and use the integrated one it would be really nice processor side as I could jump to the Core i5-3330 Ivy Bridge. The problem is that both CPUs have the Intel HD 2500. The HD 4000 found in the more expensive i7s (edit: i3-3225 is my same processor with an HD4000 instead of the HD2500) seems to be OK for gaming, but it's still like half the igpu of the AMD APU. So imagine the intel HD 2500 against my proposed Radeon HD 6570. Fact is that I spend months away from home, It won't make me happier knowing I have an i7 aging at home (even though they age ok).

Another processor I thought of before was the AMD FX-6100 which is at a similar price, but I didn't like a lot of what I've read about it. While I have a feeling that my i3 is really good for gaming, I didn't get the feeling that the FX-6100 would be a lot better than the i3 for general computing or audio. Also, I see that this Ivy Bridge i3 in a lot of stores is slighty cheaper than some Sandy Bridges (i3-21xx), do you know why? (I hope they're not listening on the store I am buying from)

I'm not really into the latest AAA games, I don't need a lot of power, but I want to be able to play new titles if they get my curiosity, even on lower settings (even some indie games require a "proper" gpu). Also I have read somewhere that you can connect the monitor to the igpu graphics port, drive everything with the igpu and when a game launches the discrete gpu kicks in feeding the igpu port and not having to move cables. I think it's something about the drivers. Do you know anything about it? I would be excellent for me because I don't need the gpu making noise when I am not playing. Another thing I saw is both the 6570 and the 6450 in a fan-less configuration. Sounds OK for sound but I am afraid the insides of the PC will get really hot.

I made that question about the WD Green drives because it's not the first time I hear something about them. It's funny because in the advertisment they say something like "less heat, less noise, less emissions". How do they compare to the WD Blue or the Seagate Barracuda? As for the SSD not yet, but I know it's interesting to have. Anyway I have a doubt about them, don't they have a limited number of write/reads? Aren't they better for reads? Don't you have to be careful to not to constantly make writes (like in some filesystems journaling mechanisms)?

Regarding Firewire in the MB that would be really nice but not strictly needed, as I have a PCI somewhere in my house if I ever need PCI. Any more comments on the motherboard or the PSU?

Again thank you very much for your help. Sorry for the lenght of the post I hope it keeps us entertained. I think I am forgetting something to ask.

tl;dr
Thank you very much

 

[Master&Puppet]

I like the changes you made to the build, but unfortunately it's way off the budget. The GPU is not that important for now, I am not gonna game that much. The minimum I wanted in performance was at least the same as the IGP found in the AMD A10-5800K APU, and the HD 6570 is a bit more powerful. If I wanted to focus more on gaming on this budget I would go for an HD 7770 and maybe a slightly slower processor. Also the case, while not spending a lot, is quite important for me. I remember my very old PC didn't have very good ventilation and it became really noisy. Plus, the CPU fan is only 11€. For now I am better spending here and in the processor than in the GPU (I think).

Ok, take 2 advice - I gaming is really that far down your priorities then we should do a drastic rethink to get the best from your budget. Music production is going to be heavily bounded by CPU/RAM performance primarily.
AMD solution - the 8120 can be had for a good price although you will need to spend on a dedicated GPU as you mentioned. That brings the price up to the same as a new i5 although in properly threaded applications the performance will be better with BD. I'd steer clear of PD - it seems to have memory bandwidth issues whereas you could happily stick 1866 RAM in with an 8120.
Intel solution - Getting an ivy bridge i5. It has better per core performance but could suffer if the applications you use can make use of all the AMD threads. HD4000 is decent enough until you can afford a dedicated GPU. Alternatively you could get a secondhand 2600 from ebay. They are selling for around £160 and would be the best option for processing power although the HD2500 iGPU is a step back for gaming. Getting a locked multiplier version would make it likely that you haven't had some idiot putting lots of volts through it.

Motherboard choice is potentially difficult - you need to be sure of what I/Os you need. USB3 might be enough, or you might want firewire or even thunderbolt (unlikely). Same goes for a soundcard. A soundcard isn't necessarily going to be needed depending on:
1. The overall quality of the music you are trying to produce. Having a soundcard will make production easier because you will hear, better, the effects that you are producing however when it comes to rendering the soundcard will have no effect - that is all CPU.
2. The source of your music. If you are simply working on tracks on you PC then see above but if you are going to be actively recording into your pc then the soundcard will have a big impact on the quality of the recording and therefore your overall production quality.

The same of course applies to any microphones and headsets/speakers you may use. The quality will only be as good as the poorest component.

What I am having doubts with is the motherboard. Why did you choose the MSI one over the ASRock one. Also, I have chosen a bit cheaper PSU (Cooler Master Elite Power 500W): Is the one you chose a lot better/worth it? Am I left with a worse/noisier/less protected PSU if I choose the Cooler Master one? Finally, the HDDs I have looked at are WD Caviar Green. In your setup there's Caviar Black, which is more expensive. What is the difference?

There is nothing particularly wrong with ASRock. They have improved markedly over the last few generations however MSI is always excellent. It's likely that you won't notice much difference between either but if I had to choose I would go with MSI.
I chose the caviar black because it is a fast HDD. If you are going to be mixing a lot of tracks and lots of channels then there is actually a potential issue of a slow HDD not being able to keep up and stalling your work. An SSD is another option but that adds to the price when a fast HDD will do.
The PSU is something you don't want to skimp on - if it is low quality PSU then it can and will damage your components when it loads up. The problem with brands like Cooler master is that they don't make their own PSUs - each range or model is made by third party manufacturers which change over time and it can be difficult or impossible to find out who they are and whether they are any good or not.

 

[rossi94]

Z77 is not neccessary without using a K series CPU so I would recommend a cheaper board with an different chipset.

 

[CPMFW]

Z77 is not neccessary without using a K series CPU so I would recommend a cheaper board with an different chipset.

thats a point to consider

 

[flashback_rtk]

Hello again. I am probably buying the PC today.

AMD solution - the 8120 can be had for a good price although you will need to spend on a dedicated GPU as you mentioned. That brings the price up to the same as a new i5 although in properly threaded applications the performance will be better with BD. I'd steer clear of PD - it seems to have memory bandwidth issues whereas you could happily stick 1866 RAM in with an 8120.
Intel solution - Getting an ivy bridge i5. It has better per core performance but could suffer if the applications you use can make use of all the AMD threads.

You are right, the FX 8120 may be stronger at raw performance, and it's not that much more expensive. What I am not so sure about is that the applications I use can make use of all the AMD threads. The 8120 seems to be like an i7 for some tasks and depending on the scenario worse than my proposed i3-3220 (differences are quite similar across a range of different benchmarks in different websites and both the Intel and AMD range of processors). I asked in an audio forum if anyone knew how DAW software usually used the processor and I was told that while mixing isn't FPU-operation intensive, stacking effects is.

I don't know how well threaded are the applications I am going to use but I know (actually I can only tell from reviews and benchmarks...) that when it comes to FPU the FX-8120 stops being an octocore and it acts like four not so good cores. There is two particular tests that made me worried about the uses of the FX for audio production work. http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd_fx8350_visherabdver2&num=5
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd_5800k_linux&num=4

In both links you can see two tests called Dolfyn and LAMMPS which do some fluid dynamics calculation, where I am supposing FPU operations are the norm (not sure though). So the feeling I am left with is that the FX is really good for very threaded applications with a lot of integer operation, and you actually LOSE performance if you're not using it that way. With the i3 I think the roof is not so high but it seems to be very performant as long as you don't reach the limit (I don't know if I am making my point). Add to that that I've been also told that you can tell between an hyperthreaded processor and one without HT (when comparing Intels), Intel's cache access and memory controller seem to be way better, old Phenom IIs are on par with Bulldozers (and I value what I am going to buy being new), and the i3 operates at about half the TDP that's why, even though I'd like to have a more powerful processor, this i3 just has a lot of advantages for today (and for my budget). I'd love to have an i5 but for now it's off budget (without killing the GPU). I'd go for the FX 8120 (with a lesser GPU) if I used a lot of programs at the same time, did virtualisations, ran a server, encoded lot of video, etc etc but It doesn't sounds like I am going to get a lot more from it for what I am going to use it for (sound projects, moderate gaming, general multimedia, office and internet use, light video editing).

I chose the caviar black because it is a fast HDD. If you are going to be mixing a lot of tracks and lots of channels then there is actually a potential issue of a slow HDD not being able to keep up and stalling your work. An SSD is another option but that adds to the price when a fast HDD will do.
The PSU is something you don't want to skimp on - if it is low quality PSU then it can and will damage your components when it loads up. The problem with brands like Cooler master is that they don't make their own PSUs - each range or model is made by third party manufacturers which change over time and it can be difficult or impossible to find out who they are and whether they are any good or not.

I plan on adding a SSD in the future but I'd still like to have a good drive for now. What do you know about the WD Caviar Blue? They have more or less the same price as the Caviar Green in the shop where I am buying.

As for the PSU I will do what you say and invest a little bit more on a Corsair one, it's not much more expensive and I value the durability of my build.

There is nothing particularly wrong with ASRock. They have improved markedly over the last few generations however MSI is always excellent. It's likely that you won't notice much difference between either but if I had to choose I would go with MSI.

Z77 is not neccessary without using a K series CPU so I would recommend a cheaper board with an different chipset.

Regarding the chipset I would be perfectly OK with an H77 motherboard. MSI offers the H77A-G43 but it is smaller than the G45, it's not branded as Military Class components, and it's not in the shop where I am buying the rest of the components. I've considered the ASRock H77 Pro4/MVP. I like the size, the port configuration and basically has pretty much what I need. It claims to have 100% Solid Capacitor Design. As an addition it also has a dehumidifier, something I never saw before on a motherboard. Is it worth it? The other one I've considered, the MSI Z77A-G43 may be a little overkill for what I am building but it's got everything I like from the ASRock one, except the dehumidifier. In a review I read that the PCB in the ASRock one was a little thinner than usual. Anyway I doubt the quality of the motherboard is low. As for MSI I have also heard they're really durable and high quality. They claim to last 12 years under full load, 40 for office use (may be exaggerated). The difference is 8€. Does anyone have to say anything regarding that? Is the MSI really superior (apart from the chipset) or it doesn't matter?
http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/H77 Pro4MVP/index.es.asp
http://www.msi.com/product/mb/Z77A-G43.html

Thanks again for your time!

I haven't bought anything yet I am definitely doing it today. Anyway I got some last questions. I wanted to buy the Corsair CX 430 PSU because I read wonders about Corsair but I also read that this PSU in particular makes a continious uncomfortable electric sound and that a lot of people got it broken in a year. Do you know anything about that? Also what's the difference between HDDs WD Caviar Blue and Caviar Green? Finally, do you know if Intel has got future plans for socket 1155 or are they ditching it? It would be nice to upgrade somewhere in the not so close future.

Thank you very much.

Hello,

I am bumping this old topic. Even though It's been one month since I got the components I haven't used the PC yet. The PSU came defective. I bought a 550W PSU that was marketed as a silent PSU. When I connect it I hear a really annoying high pitched hiss that I don't think is normal. I asked around apparently is some broken capacitors. I filed an RMA and they sent me another one which was defective again. I contacted them and they are being really slow this time. I really feel the need to give them bad press but I don't know if it's OK to do it in this forum. I am thinking on buying another PSU in a local store. Can you recommend any PSU that is silent and good quality for around 35-40€? I don't think I need more than 500W or even 450W, it's only that apparently if you go below 450W they're not so good quality.

Changing the topic. Few weeks after I placed my order Ars Technica analyzed some builds that you can do today at different price points and I was happy to see that their Budget PC was almost exactly like mine. They had a stronger GPU and an SSD (I think) but I have an aftermarket CPU cooler, fans and a nice HDD heatsink/silencer. Also I plan on adding an SSD in the future and maybe a (not yet released) GPU if I see I game quite enough to make it worth it. The processor will still be OK for sure. As for the HDD I finally went for the Caviar Blue, which I found to be noisier than expected, but it's tolerable. Maybe I should have got a 5200 RPM drive just for the sake of silence? I would have gone for the Caviar Green but apparently it's got some kind of dynamic speed (switches between 5200 and 7200) and I'm afraid that's even worse than fixed 7200 for audio work. Would I hear any difference if I had a slower drive? Also, if I buy an SSD in the future, can I configure the HDD to be turned off when not in use (as in a laptop)? (Like, loading all the files I am going to use on the SSD and run everything from there while working, then save back to the HDD).

I also found out that MSI sells my same mobo with the H77 chipset and it even gives you some overclocking options. The Core i3 3220 doesn't have an unlocked multiplier but there are other (not as good) overclocking options right? Anyway I don't know where they sell that particular mobo and the price seems to be around the same. With the Z77 I have the possibility to but a K Ivy Bridge in the future and overclock it. It's a pity though that they are not keeping the LGA1155 socket, and if I ever change CPU it will be better but old by the time. Haswell is using an LGA1150 socket. Why couldn't they just keep 5 pins of the LGA 1155 unused? I am sure there is an explanation to this besides forcing the consumer to buy a new mobo. I suspect it's got to do with power consumption. Do any one of you know the anwer to this?

Thank you for your time and advice. My posts are long because I really enjoy discussing these details with you, you have been really welcoming and knowledgable.

 

[TheCMStormStryker]

For the power supply, I would go for a Corsair CX 500 or 600. They are very good PSU's (I used a CX430 in a customer's PC, and there's a AX850 in my rig!) They are fantastic power supplies. The WD Blue drives are about as quiet as you can get. You more than likely won't benefit from a 5400RPM for noise levels. Once you get it all into place, tightened down, and the case door on, the noise levels should drop even more. As for the Motherboard, get the one that has the right I/O for you. If you're not overclocking, then you won't benefit from the overclocking capabilities of a Z77 board. If you want the I/O options a Z77 board has, then get it.

Thanks, TheCMStormStryker

 

[dragoonk]

Use a good quality power supply, look at corsair power supplies, the ones around 500 W 80+ Bronze certified if you're looking for something cheaper. As for a hard drive, you could go for whatever you want but it will not make sense to choose a quiet one... you should squeeze as much performance as you can out of this build wether it's loud or not... it's a budget build for christ sake! You can make your HDD quiet yourself by suspending it in eastic coards or something like that ( that's how I use mine ).

If you are unsure about the Z77 boards you can just wait, better times will come in the future and you will upgrade eventually.. Intel decided to change the socket and it's how things should be I guess. I've noticed that the reduction in power consumption makes it look like Intel is thinking Green! maybe they have been smoking too much green, I dunno .

The i3.. umm well there's a puzzle here... at the same pricepoint there is the FX-6300 that performs better than the i3, it has an unlocked multiplier and it's pretty overclockable... so if I were you that would be my choice for a budget build.

 

[flashback_rtk]

Thank you for your quick replies.

The thing is that I have already bought the PC. The problem lies in the shop I did it. I was going to buy the Corsair CX 430 but then I read a comment from another buyer saying that he bought one that was making a high pitched hiss and broke after a yerar, so I went for another PSU which looked respectable enough and put emphasis on the quiet operation. Too bad for me that my PSU came with the same problem as the one described in the comments for the CX 430. So I think there's something wrong going on in that e-shop. Also they have been really bad at managing the problem, to the point that the PC it's been more than a month sitting on the table getting dust (I prefer that to risk all the components because of a faulty PSU). If I don't get it solved soon I am gonna go hunt one CX 430 or CX 500, thanks for the recommendations.

Out of all the mobos they had the MSI Z77A-G43 was the one that looked more solid so I went for that one even though an H77 chipset was enough for me. I knew about the existence of the MSI H77A-G41 but it wasn't marketed as Military Class components. When I got my mobo I found out that there's also an MSI HZ77A-G43 (because they share the same manual), which is the same one I got but with the H77 chipset. That one would have been the perfect fit for me. Anyway neither of them was in the shop I was buying and the 10-15€ I saved would have been spent in shipping from another shop, so Z77 for me (Now I can pop a K branded LGA1155 processor if the day comes, I doubt it will anyway). It's just that I like to have everything adjusted to what I need and no more, but it did not pay to buy from somewhere else when I had to pay for shipping anyway. Now if I think of it the right thing to do would have been to raid the city and buy everything in local shops.

As for the processor I already thought of the FX-6300 but since one of the thing I want to do with this computer (even if it's a budget one) is some audio work, and I read around the net that Ivy Bridge is a lot better at FPU stuff than AMD i went for the i3. Too bad I haven't been able to try it yet. Also, before research, my first consideration was the AMD A10 but after making calculations I found out that it was more valuable to buy the i3 and a cheap GPU (yet better than the one in Trinity).

Question, is it possible to overclock something (example, my i3 3220) by other means than changing the multiplier? My only experience with overclocking was an old Athlon XP 2600+ in an ASUS X series mobo that let you choose between four speeds, but that only changed the multiplier anyway.

Thanks again!

edit: OK, I no longer worry about the HDD, maybe I try the elastic suspension, but isn't it dangerous for the HDD? Isn't that an easier way for the platters to get scratched?

 

[Deejeta]

IMHO the only corsair units to get are the rebranded Seasonic units. - AX range etc.

 

[Master&Puppet]

Yes you can overclock a non K processor but you can't get very far. You can up the BCLK from 100 up towards maybe 110. It depends on your other components. If you managed to get 105 out of your 3220 then that would give you an overclock at 3465MHz (165MHz)