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  #1281  
Old 02-04-20, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Dicehunter View Post
My aunt worked in China a few decades ago for a fair while and she learned that life in China doesn't carry anywhere near as much value as it does in western countries, It has nothing to do with population size, It's the mindset, Life doesn't mean much so machine gunning down the people responsible wouldn't do a thing, They'd still carry on doing it afterwards.
@Dicehunter

This just keeps getting better...


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share


Truly, do we share the same planet as a culture which advocates Medieval hocus pocus bullsh*t like this...??

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  #1282  
Old 02-04-20, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by 23RO_UK View Post
@Dicehunter

This just keeps getting better...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

Truly, do we share the same planet as a culture which advocates Medieval hocus pocus bullsh*t like this...??

Yep, Same with many asian and middle eastern countries, Mentally they are still in the stone age and that is dangerous, Nothing to do with race, All to do with culture.
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  #1283  
Old 02-04-20, 09:37 AM
tgrech tgrech is offline
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It's purely down to economics, if you look at any country in the world you will have seen similar value for life around this stage in their industrial revolution. If you look at countries in the middle east or Asia that are economically developed, they are mostly comparable to Western countries. You look at the NIC's, they're mostly comparable to Western countries during their industrial revolution, because NIC's are still in their industrial revolution. If you look at accounts from Britain, Germany, France ect at the time, they were just as barbaric in the late 1800's and early 1900's as NIC's now, we were just the first countries in the world to industrialise.

It's a shame that the rapid urbanisation of industrialisation usually comes with some form of slave labour exploitation, a devaluing of life, and a culture where heretics can thrive, but essentially every large country has gone through this period in their development. After that, the kind of work available begins to switch to more skilled work, people become better educated, the con mans and heretics lose their target audience, and then a "civilises".

Of course, an easy way to speed this process up with simply less developed nations would be if developed countries stopped exporting their labour to less developed countries to exploit the weaker regulations and lower pay.

Obviously, it's quite different with the Middle East, many of these countries laid the foundations for modern science, and were quite advanced up until forced power changes, for example Iran was a very free and progressive country up until the 1953 coup d'état (AKA Operation Ajax) that was instigated by the US to gain more power in the region, that eventually led to a strict Islamic regimes gaining power. Go back 80 years before British, French & US intervention weakened the power structures and Islamic extremists had very little power in the Middle East, wars since the 1940's in that region can more or less all be traced back to boundary changes/forced relocation's of communities by French and British empires.
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  #1284  
Old 02-04-20, 02:27 PM
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There's a saying "Don't s**t on your own doorstep".

This is why we moved a lot of our factories to China, and other poorer countries. We shifted all of our economics to other countries to do our dirty work. We ship our old junk computers to India and Pakistan, and Africa. Where, in India and Pakistan they have created polluted areas where they basically break down the components. It's incredibly toxic and killing people very young. But that's OK, we don't care as long as it's out of sight and out of mind.

We also ship a lot of our plastic to China and others, who then either burn or bury it. Again, it's fine so long as it isn't happening on your doorstep right? well um, no.

The very fact that China will basically do anything for a buck has turned them into a super power. If not *the* super power. Whilst we stopped looking they have taken over pretty much anything. And that is how it will continue to be. Greed has caused this.

Is there a way back? can we actually get them to do anything we ask? I doubt it. People would get a serious shock if they realised their TV was going to cost three times as much because we made it here on our soil.

So good luck getting them to close their dirty markets and eating things that would make a billy goat puke (First Blood quote there).

We created a monster.
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  #1285  
Old 02-04-20, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by AlienALX View Post
There's a saying "Don't s**t on your own doorstep".

This is why we moved a lot of our factories to China, and other poorer countries. We shifted all of our economics to other countries to do our dirty work. We ship our old junk computers to India and Pakistan, and Africa. Where, in India and Pakistan they have created polluted areas where they basically break down the components. It's incredibly toxic and killing people very young. But that's OK, we don't care as long as it's out of sight and out of mind.

We also ship a lot of our plastic to China and others, who then either burn or bury it. Again, it's fine so long as it isn't happening on your doorstep right? well um, no.

The very fact that China will basically do anything for a buck has turned them into a super power. If not *the* super power. Whilst we stopped looking they have taken over pretty much anything. And that is how it will continue to be. Greed has caused this.

Is there a way back? can we actually get them to do anything we ask? I doubt it. People would get a serious shock if they realised their TV was going to cost three times as much because we made it here on our soil.

So good luck getting them to close their dirty markets and eating things that would make a billy goat puke (First Blood quote there).

We created a monster.

The problem is the people in charge in the western world worship money, So long as these people have power nothing will change for the better.
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  #1286  
Old 02-04-20, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Dicehunter View Post
The problem is the people in charge in the western world worship money, So long as these people have power nothing will change for the better.
Indeed. Nothing will change and we won't learn anything from this at all.

We had plenty of warnings over the years. Swine flu, SARS and god knows what else.

And we've been caught with our pants down. Totally. Politicians are lying as usual, nothing has changed at all.
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  #1287  
Old 02-04-20, 03:59 PM
tgrech tgrech is offline
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Originally Posted by AlienALX View Post
Indeed. Nothing will change and we won't learn anything from this at all.

We had plenty of warnings over the years. Swine flu, SARS and god knows what else.

And we've been caught with our pants down. Totally. Politicians are lying as usual, nothing has changed at all.
I agree that the capitalist profit motive is the cause, or at least key exasperate, of much of these woes(Compare how say even Cuba, possibly the most brutally embargoed nation in history, has a higher life expectancy than the US, and has shown up many Western nations in their response to Covid19 so much they've been sending medicine and doctors to many much wealthier nations) but I don't think this will be a problem forever, most young people no longer agree that a profit-motivated society is suitable for the world we have ahead of us, we just have to live within one while people keep voting in the free market capitalists.

But as long as these establishment politicians can convince people to be outright scared of the concept of a society that has a regulated economy and uses human health & happiness as a barometer rather than human wealth (The word to describe this; socialism, is outright vilified in some Western countries), we will be stuck with the current system.

Not sure what the relevance to swine flu is tho, it originates from the Americas and we never stopped eating pigs because of it and probably never would.
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  #1288  
Old 02-04-20, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by tgrech View Post
I agree that the capitalist profit motive is the cause, or at least key exasperate, of much of these woes(Compare how say even Cuba, possibly the most brutally embargoed nation in history, has a higher life expectancy than the US, and has shown up many Western nations in their response to Covid19 so much they've been sending medicine and doctors to many much wealthier nations) but I don't think this will be a problem forever, most young people no longer agree that a profit-motivated society is suitable for the world we have ahead of us, we just have to live within one while people keep voting in the free market capitalists.

But as long as these establishment politicians can convince people to be outright scared of the concept of a society that has a regulated economy and uses human health & happiness as a barometer rather than human wealth (The word to describe this; socialism, is outright vilified in some Western countries), we will be stuck with the current system.

Not sure what the relevance to swine flu is tho, it originates from the Americas and we never stopped eating pigs because of it and probably never would.

Swine flu was a warning. We didn't heed the warning. SARS was another warning, we didn't heed that either. IE we are totally unprepared. Probably why my Waitrose was just delivered by a woman with no mask and no gloves.

All of this stuff should have been ready and prepared.
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  #1289  
Old 02-04-20, 04:23 PM
tgrech tgrech is offline
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Originally Posted by AlienALX View Post
Swine flu was a warning. We didn't heed the warning. SARS was another warning, we didn't heed that either. IE we are totally unprepared. Probably why my Waitrose was just delivered by a woman with no mask and no gloves.

All of this stuff should have been ready and prepared.
That much is true, the ironic bit is that the experts in the UK have been warning that a SARS related pandemic was essentially inevitable since 2012. The NHS created a hugely robust response plan and had a wide range of preparations. The experts learnt all the lessons, but alas the Tory govt. didn't want the bad PR of the reports into our handlings of the last pandemics so buried them. Even our usual annual flu pandemic preparations would have helped a lot here, but that was also cut down for cost reasons. As long as governments have an ideologically blind belief that the profit motive alone can drive progress we will keep hitting these pitfalls.

Even today, my dad was still unable to get leave off work, despite doing a complete non-essential job, until after both my parents had symptoms of the virus. The UK govt is still giving too much slack to companies to allow them to run out of fear they'll harm the economy. But long term, surely the harm done is worse with how many people could my dad have infected while asymptomatic, particularly my mum in the NHS, before he was finally given the opportunity to take time off work and take the kids out of school.

Often I see other nations accused of these cover up attempts to flawed government responses, but the fact is the UK, US and co are no better when it comes to dodgy cover ups, maybe just more successful at hiding their mistakes.

UK: https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/202.../cygn-m28.html

US: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/19/u...-outbreak.html
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  #1290  
Old 02-04-20, 04:54 PM
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This pleases me. I really hope we can do something positive with all of this, and that is to realise how lucky we are to have the NHS.

As some one who travelled a lot of the world and most notably the USA I can truly say the NHS is amazing.

When my health insurer found out I had bipolar disorder in the USA they cancelled my policy. I got to Walgreens to get my prescription and they refused, wanting nearly a thousand dollars. Which was where the slippery slope to my downfall began.
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