Water cooling advice.

[Tjj226_Angel]

It has been a while since I have been on the OC3D website. :hello:

I will cut straight to the chase, I am trying to OC my i7 3770K to 5ghz. I am fully aware that 4.8 is pretty much the wall for OCing this chip, and I am also aware about the TIM issue with the IB chips and all that fun stuff.

However..... I am the type of person who sees those problems as a challenge rather than a limitation.

Bottom line is this, I have a corsair obsidian 800D case, and sometime in the near future I will upgrade my stupid maximus v gene board for the formula version (from what I can tell, the only benefit the maximus v extreme board has in the way of overclocking include features for LN2 OCing and I am just looking to WC only ATM....feel free to correct me if I am mistaken).

Right now I have an aqua computer airplex revolution 360mm rad, a xspc raystorm CPU block, and my hopes and dreams :rollinglaugh:

The only reason I have these parts is because of skinee lab's reviews and comparisons. I am quickly learning that their reviews are not to be trusted.

I can return everything I have right now, and it wouldn't cost me anything more than my time. With that being said I need to know what is the absolute best water cooling setup I can get for 400 USD. Keep in mind that I am trying to chase every single last degree I possibly can because I will be trying to cool down an inferno :flamed:

Also, I think it is important to note that I would be willing to mount another 360mm rad on the outside of my case if need be. I would like to just get an awesome 360mm rad that would keep a freakishly hot CPU around 80C, but I will do what ever I need to in order to get this chip running nice and chilly.:rock:

 

[airdeano]

welcome back to the forum,
difference between 4.6GHz and 5.0GHz is 10%, which isn't really measurable in real life scenarios.
but the gain in 40% more temps is more the problem and how to rid the excessive wattage in heat
is almost futile and wasteful in time and energy.

im assuming you are looking for a 5.0GHz overclock 24/7, correct?

if so, you might as well start bining chips. running any chip 1.5vcore+ 24/7 is going to leave
a very large heat trail . its not that it can't be done, it is wasteful as the chip wasn't built for
that kind of torture on a 24/7 basis. for a bonzi run or validation, but not 24/7. the equipment needed
would be a water chiller and you'd wanna seek help in the sub-zero group. the issue is that
the amount of heat generated just cannot be satisifed by a couple of rads, but a bank of
3-4 quad rads with jet drier fans to keep the water tepid.
deep enough gap in ambient to water temp could also lean towards condensation and again
the sub-zero group can assist you on that.

airdeano

 

[Tjj226_Angel]

welcome back to the forum,
difference between 4.6GHz and 5.0GHz is 10%, which isn't really measurable in real life scenarios.
but the gain in 40% more temps is more the problem and how to rid the excessive wattage in heat
is almost futile and wasteful in time and energy.

im assuming you are looking for a 5.0GHz overclock 24/7, correct?

if so, you might as well start bining chips. running any chip 1.5vcore+ 24/7 is going to leave
a very large heat trail . its not that it can't be done, it is wasteful as the chip wasn't built for
that kind of torture on a 24/7 basis. for a bonzi run or validation, but not 24/7. the equipment needed
would be a water chiller and you'd wanna seek help in the sub-zero group. the issue is that
the amount of heat generated just cannot be satisifed by a couple of rads, but a bank of
3-4 quad rads with jet drier fans to keep the water tepid.
deep enough gap in ambient to water temp could also lean towards condensation and again
the sub-zero group can assist you on that.

airdeano

I had even thought about a phase change set up as well as what you are recommending. Or even running one of those phobya housings in a freezer and use dye as a sort of anti freeze.

However, I did play around with a corsair H100 for a few days and I feel fairly confident I have a good chip and I can get a 5ghz OC on about 1.45v. I was able to boot into windows at 1.4v at 5ghz, but I didn't dare test prime on that cooler.

If need be, I will just remove the heat spreader for the chip and replace the TIM. In fact I have been trying to figure out how to sort of mod one of the indigo extreme stickers so that I could apply it to the physical core of the CPU and attach it back to the heat speared. If nothing else, I can still use artic silver 5 (or something better) to replace the intel TIM. The Japanese reported a 20C drop in temps, so if all else fails I can always void the warranty :lol:. I only need this thing to last me until Broadwell-skylake anyways. It isn't like I am going to try and make this thing last 4+ years or anything. Besides, the only reason I went with IB over SB-E was so that I could push the envelope with the OC.

The other thing is that there have been more and more people reporting a 5ghz with ok temps. There was a post I read recently from a different site that had his i7 3770K to 5.2ghz at 1.45v with his 140mm rad in ice water getting 75C. Now that might sound like an inferno, but when you realize it was a small bowl of ice water with no flow through the fins, it starts to make me hopeful.

At the moment though I just need to know what is the best rad and pump and block. If nothing else I will still be going to 4.8ghz and I would still need a cooler that would chase every last degree possible.

 

[airdeano]

i'm running 4.8 on sandy 2550K @ 1.39vcore loaded 80° on NH-D14 (a=30°) and with the H100 a simple
74° (push/pull) with OE fans or 78° with SP120 (perf under-volted 7-volt) using either LinX
or Intel Burn (max load with max memory) and its is stable. now moving to the RX/UT60 240 rads
is a different story. dropped another 22° on a CPU loop, but re-clocking for 5.3/5.0 was senseless as the
heat pouring out of the rad was attroicious. loaded a 1.495vcore 90° was the best with normal water
cooling. was looking into a chiller just for validation, but $300 for a validation stripe isn't for
me..
so i stick to 4.8 and when ambient is 32°-36° i'll down clock to 4.5 which drops the temps rediculiosly
into the 49°-45° range.

airdeano

 

[Master&Puppet]

The problem you will get is the chip itself not the cooling per se. A standard CPU loop (i.e. 240x60 rad or 360x35mm) with a raystorm block will do more than you need but it's getting the chip to rid the heat from itself that's hard. That's why LN2 cooling is so good on these chips because the cooling penetrates into the chip.

You are really going to have to fight for every degree. Trim the Vcore using LLC in a medium setting and drop the CPUPLL right down too.

If you still can't make it and want to try further then there's always replacing the TIM under the IHS too. Some people have got a few degrees off the temps that way.

It's a tough one!

 

[Tjj226_Angel]

The problem you will get is the chip itself not the cooling per se. A standard CPU loop (i.e. 240x60 rad or 360x35mm) with a raystorm block will do more than you need but it's getting the chip to rid the heat from itself that's hard. That's why LN2 cooling is so good on these chips because the cooling penetrates into the chip.

You are really going to have to fight for every degree. Trim the Vcore using LLC in a medium setting and drop the CPUPLL right down too.

If you still can't make it and want to try further then there's always replacing the TIM under the IHS too. Some people have got a few degrees off the temps that way.

It's a tough one!

I guess I need more hardware recommendations more than advice ATM. Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate the advice, but I already am aware of all of that.

You yourself said it best. I am going to need to chase every degree possible.

However, to do so I need to know what the best Rad., pump, res, and possibly CPU block there is so that I can chase every degree possible.

Basically my biggest hang up right now is I am looking at my current aqua computer airplex revolution rad, and the swiftech M-something or other extreme radiator. Here is where I am in a huge debate with myself. The swiftech rad has incredible performance, but it owes it's success to having a thin profile and a high FPI. The idea is that you are going to push so much air through it, that the fact that it doesn't have as much overall surface area as a 60mm rad won't matter. The flip side is that it is cheap enough where I can buy two and have a 6x120mm rad setup.

On the other hand however, the aqua computer rad is a thicker 360mm rad which should have about as much surface area as 2 swift tech rads. In theory, the two rad idea would probably get me better performance, but I would prefer to keep a single rad loop IN my case rather than having it all over the place.

My question would be 'is there a rad that has the shear performance of two swift tech rads in a single 360mm rad? I am aware that I would have to have a leaf blower moving air through it, but I really could care less about the noise because I put on headphones anyways.

The only issue I have with the pump/res is I am wondering if I should have a res attached to a M355x style pump to increase the performance of the pump or spend a bit more money and get a D5 pump and a separate bay res. No one seems to have a definitive answer on which one will save me that 1 extra degree that is so crucial in a insane project like this one.

Lastly, I still wrestle with the CPU block. I have a read a ton of reviews that say it is a great block, but the price scares me. How can such a good block be so cheap? I feel like there has to be a better quality CPU block that would give me a couple extra degrees off, but no one seems to answer this question for me.

I will wrap up this nice long wall of text by saying that with this project being as insane as it is, I need the best. People on other threads keep coming back saying that my pump and other parts are good enough. What I need is the best I can buy, not "good enough". I really want to know what there die hard water cooling guys fantasize about having in their rig. And realistically, even if all of this blows up horribly, and for some reason I can only go up to 4.7ghz (which I already know I have a chip that can go up higher), then at least I still have a cooler and a case that will last me a long time to come (unless ATX, and E-ATX become outdated )

 

[Master&Puppet]

Cool, I'll offer what I can but I think that you are hitting a wall regarding the best bits of kit for this specific scenario.

I honestly haven't got any figures r.e. the 2x 360 or 1x 360x60 scenario as I haven't found anything via google that is that specific. What I can add is that they both seem about right. A 360x60mm rad is pretty much the start of diminishing returns for a single block loop. Most people would of course be running a CPU and GPU off it.

Using the assumption (which by the way is wrong) that all the heat from the CPU is able to escape to the rads then the twin radiator option seems theorectically better because you can fit twice as many fans on two radiators. So even though the radiator area is the same, as you mentioned, you will have a lot more airflow over the twin rad setup.

For fans I'd use the Scythe Gentle Typhoon 5400RPM High RPM series. Your PC will sound like a jet engine but they have some serious cooling...

Now whether that matters or not is a different question. There is a point at which the actual amount of cooling you attach won't make any difference because the CPU is unable dissipate the heat onto the block. With Ivy Bridge that happens earlier as you well know. Honestly I don't know whether that point will be reached before the single rad option is heat saturated or not but if it isn't then the twin rad option isn't going to make a difference.

Pump wise, the M355x is the DDC variety isn't it? If so then I'd go for the d5. The advantage the DDC has over the D5 is pressure but we are only talking about 1 block and a couple of rads at the most which is easy for either pump to manage. On the other hand the D5 can provide a lot more LPH which will be more likely to gain you a degree or two.

As for the Raystorm block - I think that XSPC have just hit the nail on the head for the last couple of generations of water blocks. Since the RASA they have been making top blocks at prices which encourage everyone to get involved. I think that the price is decreasing because water-cooling is becoming more popular. In any case all we can go by are those reviews and the Raystorm does pop up in the top 2 virtually everywhere and as a bonus it is very unrestrictive which would compliment a D5 nicely.

If you are really trying to bang out the GHz then you might want to consider separating the IHS and applying some decent quality TIM. Beyond the obvious risks of taking part the CPU yourself some people have report slightly better temperature.

Beyond this advice I'm struggling to offer anything more concrete. Hope that helps a little. Let us know what you decide upon and how well it goes!

 

[Tjj226_Angel]

Cool, I'll offer what I can but I think that you are hitting a wall regarding the best bits of kit for this specific scenario.

I honestly haven't got any figures r.e. the 2x 360 or 1x 360x60 scenario as I haven't found anything via google that is that specific. What I can add is that they both seem about right. A 360x60mm rad is pretty much the start of diminishing returns for a single block loop. Most people would of course be running a CPU and GPU off it.

Using the assumption (which by the way is wrong) that all the heat from the CPU is able to escape to the rads then the twin radiator option seems theorectically better because you can fit twice as many fans on two radiators. So even though the radiator area is the same, as you mentioned, you will have a lot more airflow over the twin rad setup.

For fans I'd use the Scythe Gentle Typhoon 5400RPM High RPM series. Your PC will sound like a jet engine but they have some serious cooling...

Now whether that matters or not is a different question. There is a point at which the actual amount of cooling you attach won't make any difference because the CPU is unable dissipate the heat onto the block. With Ivy Bridge that happens earlier as you well know. Honestly I don't know whether that point will be reached before the single rad option is heat saturated or not but if it isn't then the twin rad option isn't going to make a difference.

Pump wise, the M355x is the DDC variety isn't it? If so then I'd go for the d5. The advantage the DDC has over the D5 is pressure but we are only talking about 1 block and a couple of rads at the most which is easy for either pump to manage. On the other hand the D5 can provide a lot more LPH which will be more likely to gain you a degree or two.

As for the Raystorm block - I think that XSPC have just hit the nail on the head for the last couple of generations of water blocks. Since the RASA they have been making top blocks at prices which encourage everyone to get involved. I think that the price is decreasing because water-cooling is becoming more popular. In any case all we can go by are those reviews and the Raystorm does pop up in the top 2 virtually everywhere and as a bonus it is very unrestrictive which would compliment a D5 nicely.

If you are really trying to bang out the GHz then you might want to consider separating the IHS and applying some decent quality TIM. Beyond the obvious risks of taking part the CPU yourself some people have report slightly better temperature.

Beyond this advice I'm struggling to offer anything more concrete. Hope that helps a little. Let us know what you decide upon and how well it goes!

That is basically what I was looking for.

I am basically asking you guys because I can't find any direct information on google as well.

I also want to make it clear that I do know what I am getting into. I know that there is a thermal threshold for the actual core, then the TIM, then the IHS, then another layer of TIM, then the CPU block, and finally the water itself. I do know that for each of these stages the heat transfer looses a crap ton off efficiency.

I think some of you already know this, but just to make sure you understand....all I want to make sure I do is get rid of what ever heat that the situation allows me. I am saying this because a lot of my friends seem to think that a water cooling loop would be like the equivalent to cooling your CPU down to absolute zero. I just want to make sure that I am not viewed in the same way.

Master & Puppet has pretty much answered some of my questions.

I do have one left. The pump is where I start to get VERY confused. On paper I know that the D5 pump is pretty much invincible. However, when you start adding custom tops to the DDC 3.25 revision pump, it starts beating out the D5. However, you can also add a custom top to the D5 as well.

My question is which option would be better after some modifications?

 

[Perturabo]

D5 with a top will be better than a DDC with a top if that is what you are asking? The difference in it will be marginal though unless you have many highly restrictive components in the loop.

 

[Tjj226_Angel]

D5 with a top will be better than a DDC with a top if that is what you are asking? The difference in it will be marginal though unless you have many highly restrictive components in the loop.

Cool, perfect!

I will post pics when I get this thing setup. :rock:

 

[Master&Puppet]

Nice! I look forward to seeing how far you get!