OC3D Review Asus GTX590

375watts, is that the max 2 x 8 pin + mobo power can give because AMD 6990 can draw 450watts with the faster BIOS, according to AMD's website a few days ago?

8 pin = 150 watts

mobo PCI express = 75 watts

i think

Yeah Jerome that is exactly right PCIE 2.0 spec is

8 pin 150 watts each

PCIE slot 75 watts

So 2x8 pin + PCIE slot = 375 watts

Wow if there is a faster bios that can cause a 75 watt increase in power draw over the PCIE spec. That is one bios I would have to say "Not a chance in Bleep" to. there is no way I would flash that to my card. Crazzy..

J can you post a link, that is one train wreck I just have to see.

Thanks man
 
If by "suggestion" you are referring to industry excepted standards then I agree. Trade organizations create standards, IP companies design to those standards, manufacturers build to those standards. The result is a larger and more stable market for the consumer which at the end of the day is what it's all about.

Correct they create standards, and those standards aren't set in stone as they're constantly revised and amended as technology around them evolves. 2.0 becomes 2.0a..... upto 2.1 to which they're adapting to the coming 3.0.

As do/will the power statements.

Your right 375 watts was not put forward as total thermal limit within a PC case. 375 watts is the electrical/thermal limit of a single PCIE 2.0 slot. PCIE does not restrict the total number of potential PCIE 2.0 slots. ATX however seems to think that 7 expansion slots are enough. So for the most part 7 PCIE slots are the most you can get on a standard ATX motherboard.

Almost, 375 was the most that was wanted/could be supplied, within reason, given the want of the gfx people and what could be supplied by atx power within reason.

PCI (slots/busses) and atx do not between themselves alone decide how many a mobo can supply for expansion. There is no standard to this. It's mostly down to controllers, chipsets to service the busses and what the mobo manufacturer has in mind. They often tie up a number of lanes with onboard devices. Again, really depending on what embedded companies they have 'onboard' with their design.

No, because by putting that load on another PCB in another PCIE 2.0 slot the surface area for thermal dissipation has at least doubled. What is silly is suggesting putting that same thermal load "in this case 750 watts" on a single PCIE 2.0 card. Thank you for making my point for me.

No, because you can put 1000W, for example, on a pcie 2.0 card if you chose to do so, as long as you manage the waste (heat) effectively. They could create a 4x gpu card that was 22 inches long and only fitted in a customized case if really wanted to. And it would be within the PCIe base standards.

That's true, best I can tell you think industry standards are just suggestion because there is no enforcement body "other than the marketplace". What you seem to be saying is that in theory a graphics chip manufacturer could design and build a single 750 watt graphics board. OK, sure in theory, my point is they wont because of those pesky industry standards. That and putting that much heat in that small a form factor without an extraordinary cooling solution is a good way to start a fire.

Both the 590 and 6990 can go beyond these 375w "standards" already. Keep a good eye out on hwbot in the days/weeks to come, where we will see how enthusiasts use the cards, and their 2x 8pin connectors, to overclock the crap out of them.

I stand by my answer, Nvidia says that the 590 at load draws 365 watts. Nvidia says that the clock rates they set for the reference 590 are to ensure compliance with PCIE electrical/thermal standards. The fact that Nvidia did not characterize this as a problem doesn't make it any less the case. The fact is if Nvidia could have set the reference clocks higher they would have. Nvidia would love to claim the fastest single graphics card title, As it stands AMD's 6990 holds that title, costs between $75.00 and $100.00 dollars less and uses less power. The one key drawback of the 6990 reference design is noise, cheers to Nvidia for making the 590 quite. That said, the OEMS already have aftermarket cooling in the pipeline for the 6990, soon they will be very quite as well and you can bet it wont have a $75.00 premium.

nVidia have done exactly that with the reference 590, correct. But there are scarier things that their partners are coming out with that also tip the balance over this magic 375.

375watts, is that the max 2 x 8 pin + mobo power can give because AMD 6990 can draw 450watts with the faster BIOS, according to AMD's website a few days ago?

8 pin = 150 watts

mobo PCI express = 75 watts

i think

Yeah, given standard of pcie plus additional power supplied to the card if the psu can handle the supply, or you use another source of supply like adapters.

2x 8 pin sockets 'can' and will supply beyond 450w if required, it can be required for overclocking 2x 8 pin cards especially when going beyond a stock cooler.
 

Thanks Jerome

Looks like AMD and Nvidia both agree with oneseraph.

"Dual-BIOS Support

The AMD Radeon™ HD 6990 graphics card features dual-BIOS capabilities. This feature is controlled by the Unlocking Switch, which toggles between the factory-supported Performance BIOS of 375W (BIOS1), and an Extreme Performance BIOS (BIOS2) that can potentially unlock higher clock speeds and up to 450W of mind-blowing performance!

Caution:

Do not use the 450W setting unless you are familiar with overclocking and are using high-quality system components to ensure maximum system stability. If you encounter system instability or other unexpected system performance while using the 450W setting, return the graphics card to the factory-supported 375W setting, as your system may not be properly equipped to handle the increased demands of the 450W setting.

The following procedure describes how to switch between BIOS settings using the Unlocking Switch on your AMD Radeon™ HD 6990 graphics card.

Locate the yellow caution sticker adjacent to the AMD CrossFireX™ connector on your AMD Radeon™ HD 6990 graphics card. This sticker covers the Unlocking Switch and must be removed to access and change dual-BIOS switch positions.

WARNING: Before proceeding, thoroughly review the documentation for your AMD Radeon™ HD 6990 graphics card and assure that your computer meets all minimum system requirements.

Remove the sticker and set the Unlocking Switch to the desired setting:

Position 1 — 450W Extreme Performance BIOS (BIOS2).

Position 2 (shipping position) — 375W factory-supported Performance BIOS (BIOS1).

WARNING: AMD graphics cards are intended to be operated only within their associated specifications and factory settings. Operating your AMD graphics card outside of specification or in excess of factory settings, including but not limited to overclocking, may damage your graphics card and/or lead to other problems, including but not limited to, damage to your system components (including your motherboard and components thereon (e.g. memory)); system instabilities (e.g. data loss and corrupted images); shortened graphics card, system component and/or system life; and in extreme cases, total system failure. AMD does not provide support or service for issues or damages related to use of an AMD graphics card outside of specifications or in excess of factory settings. You may also not receive support or service from your system manufacturer.

DAMAGES CAUSED BY USE OF YOUR AMD GRAPHICS PROCESSOR OUTSIDE OF SPECIFICATION OR IN EXCESS OF FACTORY SETTINGS ARE NOT COVERED UNDER YOUR AMD PRODUCT WARRANTY AND MAY NOT BE COVERED BY YOUR SYSTEM MANUFACTURER’S WARRANTY."
 
Almost, 375 was the most that was wanted/could be supplied, within reason, given the want of the gfx people and what could be supplied by atx power within reason.

PCI (slots/busses) and atx do not between themselves alone decide how many a mobo can supply for expansion. There is no standard to this. It's mostly down to controllers, chipsets to service the busses and what the mobo manufacturer has in mind. They often tie up a number of lanes with onboard devices. Again, really depending on what embedded companies they have 'onboard' with their design.

I have read all the back and forth between you and oneseraph. I decided to do a little research of my own. I thought you both might be full of it. here is what I found out.

Standard ATX allows 7 expasion slots.

http://www.formfactors.org/FFDetail.asp?FFID=1&CatID=1 look at 3.3.1 Expansion Slots

oneseraph 1 Rastalovich 0

PCIE power limit 375 watts

oneseraph 2 Rastalovich 0

No, because you can put 1000W, for example, on a pcie 2.0 card if you chose to do so, as long as you manage the waste (heat) effectively. They could create a 4x gpu card that was 22 inches long and only fitted in a customized case if really wanted to. And it would be within the PCIe base standards.

Both Nvidia and AMD have both stated that they are staying within the pcie 375 watt limit.

oneserph 3 Rastalovich 0

Basically everything I look up points to oneseraph being right. No offense but the more you comment the less you appear to know. I suggest letting it go mate, you are on the wrong side of the debate.
 
I have read all the back and forth between you and oneseraph. I decided to do a little research of my own. I thought you both might be full of it. here is what I found out.

Standard ATX allows 7 expasion slots.

http://www.formfactors.org/FFDetail.asp?FFID=1&CatID=1 look at 3.3.1 Expansion Slots

oneseraph 1 Rastalovich 0

PCIE power limit 375 watts

oneseraph 2 Rastalovich 0

Both Nvidia and AMD have both stated that they are staying within the pcie 375 watt limit.

oneserph 3 Rastalovich 0

Basically everything I look up points to oneseraph being right. No offense but the more you comment the less you appear to know. I suggest letting it go mate, you are on the wrong side of the debate.

You said it, I was curious myself. Checked it out and oneseraph got pretty much everything right. Keep up the good work oneseraph-props to your tech wisdom.
 

Now that is something you dont see everyday. This thing reads like one of those stupid medication commercials we have here in the states. The kind where they tell you how great there allergy meds are then a voice in the background starts saying thing like "in some cases "xmed" has been known to cause kidney failure or in the event of brain hemorrhage please consult you doctor immediately.

This is what happens when you operate so far out of spec. First you get the following hilarious disclaimer.

"WARNING: AMD graphics cards are intended to be operated only within their associated specifications and factory settings. Operating your AMD graphics card outside of specification or in excess of factory settings, including but not limited to overclocking, may damage your graphics card and/or lead to other problems, including but not limited to, damage to your system components (including your motherboard and components thereon (e.g. memory)); system instabilities (e.g. data loss and corrupted images); shortened graphics card, system component and/or system life; and in extreme cases, total system failure. AMD does not provide support or service for issues or damages related to use of an AMD graphics card outside of specifications or in excess of factory settings. You may also not receive support or service from your system manufacturer."

Really going beyond the PCIE 375 watt limit by a solid 75 watts could damage to your system components (including your motherboard and components thereon (e.g. memory). Wow that's surprising. Could cause complete system failure you say, Hmm that doesn't sound good. If I do this your not going to help me you say.

Anyway, you see what I mean.

Thanks for the link J man, I haven't laughed that hard in a while.
smile.gif
 
I have read all the back and forth between you and oneseraph. I decided to do a little research of my own. I thought you both might be full of it. here is what I found out.

Standard ATX allows 7 expasion slots.

http://www.formfactors.org/FFDetail.asp?FFID=1&CatID=1 look at 3.3.1 Expansion Slots

oneseraph 1 Rastalovich 0

PCIE power limit 375 watts

oneseraph 2 Rastalovich 0

Both Nvidia and AMD have both stated that they are staying within the pcie 375 watt limit.

oneserph 3 Rastalovich 0

Basically everything I look up points to oneseraph being right. No offense but the more you comment the less you appear to know. I suggest letting it go mate, you are on the wrong side of the debate.

Excellent research, and best of luck with your ATX standard mobo with the agp for advanced graphics and isa lanes for the 7 expansion slots. Let us know how you get on with that, I assume your current mobo fits these standards.

There is no debate as to whether PCI-SIG mention 375w as the operational limit, but as I'm try to explain to you all about how the system works, this is/was dependant what is available at the time of testing and writing of the said document. i.e. 2x 8pin atx pcie power connectors - it would not be envisaged that anyone would go beyond that at the time.

Back with the base 2.0 specification they would have stated 75w, for the slot, plus *whatever additional power could feasibly and realisticly be supplied*. They added molex, upped the power, 6x pin, upped the power, 8x pin, upped the power .. til the documents now read 375 .. another change comes along and so the documents will/may change.

As a statement of intent, for sure both parties stated they were sticking within this, and they have. They're all nice and friendly behind the scenes, even tho tho poke tounges out at each other when the other's not looking.

This isn't a political battleground or anything buddy, I'm merely trying to explain to you how the system works.

At the current moment in time, the PCIe 2.0 (latest 2.1) 'should' (I can't confirm this) be being used within modern up to date mobos being release. 2.1 is (should be) the final stepping stone to 3.0, it is *practically*, for all intensive purposes, the same in everything except data usage (for arguments sake). Whether this itself carries the same electrical properties of 3.0 I can't tell you, as the documents within PCI-SIG, which you'll need membership for to look at maybe, do-not give specific numbers on what the power req for base-3.0 will be. I did speculate the other week, knowing that both nvidia and amd have release these cards that so fragrantly play the "I'm not touching you" game with 375w, amd especially as they have a bigger hand in mobos these days, that they are infact in-house using "3.0" and are gearing up for it for future releases.

The reasoning behind many of the failures of going beyond 375 in testing gfxcards is down to how these 8x pin sockets are supplied. If you go down the standard route of conventionally hooking up your psu and using 8x pin designated cables, your system can and usually will, shutdown as the psu trips out. BUT if you supply the 8x pin socket with a combination of power sources, using adapters in the main, much more than 375 can be there if the card requires it - i.e. what overclockers will tend to do if they're intent on breaking the boundries.

For sure, there will be disclaimers all over the websites of these manufacturers explaining to you how awful it will be for your system if you go beyond 375, they'll probably even use it as a means to refuse warranty. But hey - it's a disclaimer - Intel have disclaimers about how many volts they want you to put over their cpus, and how much notice of that do enthusiasts take notice of ? In today's climate we need disclaimers on bridges that dangling your baby off the edge of it could result in harm and the bridge people won't be held responsible.
 
Ahh, that kinda makes sense.

Their harping back to the old requirement of plugging in molex connectors to mobos if you intended to use the second pcie slot for graphics.

EDIT: oops, ofc what I should be saying is how dare they, this breaks so many regulations, it's rediculous !
wink.gif
 
+rep

No, cos you've been around so long that you already know how much of a pain in the arse, opinionated, waffle-spouting, member I can be.

Really only trying to advise how the respective document system works, and I attract the arguments probably by the way I write things. Sue me, it took me ages to get an english qualification, whilst at the same time I got math, electronics and physics, and went on to work in the field where we get these document releases.

And despite how members may take things, or increasingly tend to over the last so many years, I honestly don't mean any offense by any of it. If someone takes it, I'll be the first to appologise.
 
+rep

No, cos you've been around so long that you already know how much of a pain in the arse, opinionated, waffle-spouting, member I can be.

Really only trying to advise how the respective document system works, and I attract the arguments probably by the way I write things. Sue me, it took me ages to get an english qualification, whilst at the same time I got math, electronics and physics, and went on to work in the field where we get these document releases.

And despite how members may take things, or increasingly tend to over the last so many years, I honestly don't mean any offense by any of it. If someone takes it, I'll be the first to appologise.

The banter can get heated but its always welcomed
smile.gif
 
+rep

No, cos you've been around so long that you already know how much of a pain in the arse, opinionated, waffle-spouting, member I can be.

Really only trying to advise how the respective document system works, and I attract the arguments probably by the way I write things. Sue me, it took me ages to get an english qualification, whilst at the same time I got math, electronics and physics, and went on to work in the field where we get these document releases.

And despite how members may take things, or increasingly tend to over the last so many years, I honestly don't mean any offense by any of it. If someone takes it, I'll be the first to appologise.

This post pretty much says it all, pain in ares is right. You say you have an English qualification, so no excuse there. You claim something about math, electronics and physics, so no excuse there. You claim that you will be the first to apologize if someone is offended.

Well I am offended, everyone who has suggested that you are wrong has been responded to with off point often rude, sarcastic and hyperbolic comments. So all these people don't know what they are talking about? You think you are the only person who understands the way things work? My how lucky we all are that you are here to inform the rest of us. What would we idiots do without you.

What a load of SH*T!

The company I work for is a member of the PCI Special Interest Group and I am a consulting engineer. So when I say that you are wrong I think everyone on this forum will appreciate my meaning.

So here goes, you are wrong.

Now anyone can argue for the sake of argument. It takes real character to admit when you are wrong. So what's it gonna be, do you have the stones to admit when you are wrong or are you that other guy?
 
This post pretty much says it all, pain in ares is right. You say you have an English qualification, so no excuse there. You claim something about math, electronics and physics, so no excuse there. You claim that you will be the first to apologize if someone is offended.

Well I am offended, everyone who has suggested that you are wrong has been responded to with off point often rude, sarcastic and hyperbolic comments. So all these people don't know what they are talking about? You think you are the only person who understands the way things work? My how lucky we all are that you are here to inform the rest of us. What would we idiots do without you.

What a load of SH*T!

The company I work for is a member of the PCI Special Interest Group and I am a consulting engineer. So when I say that you are wrong I think everyone on this forum will appreciate my meaning.

So here goes, you are wrong.

Now anyone can argue for the sake of argument. It takes real character to admit when you are wrong. So what's it gonna be, do you have the stones to admit when you are wrong or are you that other guy?

I'm betting he is the other guy.
 
The company I work for is a member of the PCI Special Interest Group and I am a consulting engineer.

So you should be aware of how the system works and the possibilities of future statements/papers/addendums that may come on the back of technology developements.

And I do appologise, unreservedly if any offense is taken.
 
Excellent research, and best of luck with your ATX standard mobo with the agp for advanced graphics and isa lanes for the 7 expansion slots. Let us know how you get on with that, I assume your current mobo fits these standards.

There is no debate as to whether PCI-SIG mention 375w as the operational limit, but as I'm try to explain to you all about how the system works, this is/was dependant what is available at the time of testing and writing of the said document. i.e. 2x 8pin atx pcie power connectors - it would not be envisaged that anyone would go beyond that at the time.

Back with the base 2.0 specification they would have stated 75w, for the slot, plus *whatever additional power could feasibly and realisticly be supplied*. They added molex, upped the power, 6x pin, upped the power, 8x pin, upped the power .. til the documents now read 375 .. another change comes along and so the documents will/may change.

As a statement of intent, for sure both parties stated they were sticking within this, and they have. They're all nice and friendly behind the scenes, even tho tho poke tounges out at each other when the other's not looking.

This isn't a political battleground or anything buddy, I'm merely trying to explain to you how the system works.

At the current moment in time, the PCIe 2.0 (latest 2.1) 'should' (I can't confirm this) be being used within modern up to date mobos being release. 2.1 is (should be) the final stepping stone to 3.0, it is *practically*, for all intensive purposes, the same in everything except data usage (for arguments sake). Whether this itself carries the same electrical properties of 3.0 I can't tell you, as the documents within PCI-SIG, which you'll need membership for to look at maybe, do-not give specific numbers on what the power req for base-3.0 will be. I did speculate the other week, knowing that both nvidia and amd have release these cards that so fragrantly play the "I'm not touching you" game with 375w, amd especially as they have a bigger hand in mobos these days, that they are infact in-house using "3.0" and are gearing up for it for future releases.

The reasoning behind many of the failures of going beyond 375 in testing gfxcards is down to how these 8x pin sockets are supplied. If you go down the standard route of conventionally hooking up your psu and using 8x pin designated cables, your system can and usually will, shutdown as the psu trips out. BUT if you supply the 8x pin socket with a combination of power sources, using adapters in the main, much more than 375 can be there if the card requires it - i.e. what overclockers will tend to do if they're intent on breaking the boundries.

For sure, there will be disclaimers all over the websites of these manufacturers explaining to you how awful it will be for your system if you go beyond 375, they'll probably even use it as a means to refuse warranty. But hey - it's a disclaimer - Intel have disclaimers about how many volts they want you to put over their cpus, and how much notice of that do enthusiasts take notice of ? In today's climate we need disclaimers on bridges that dangling your baby off the edge of it could result in harm and the bridge people won't be held responsible.

Quack Quack quack quack quack......

I cant confirm this, I cant confirm that, what a bunch of doubletalk. All these excuses just to get out of admitting your wrong. It's like cupojoe said arguing for the sake of argument.

Man up and admit your wrong
 
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