Nvidia has started its "Ultimate Countdown" - Something BIG is coming!

[Avet]

I am playing games since '92 and i will hopefully play them for as long in the future. The stereotype that you are wasting money on gaming computer just makes me sick. I like playing games and yes I need 3080Ti and 10900K overclocked to 5.2 GHz. I want to enjoy games with all settings maxed out and high fps. I need 1000€ ultra wide monitor. That is my passion and i don't see anything wrong with that. I also support and praise people for the over the top enthusiast builds.

I am usualy very smart with sending money. I don't like overpaying for things. I won't buy everything in a single store if there is a drinks store just down the street where I can buy water and juices for 10% less. To give you an example. You would be surprised how much money you save like that. But if the best GPU costs 1200€ and there is no alternative I don't mind buying it.

Yes it is a lot of money but if you like playing games on sky high details or just like having shiny things go for it.

 

[Dicehunter]

I am playing games since '92 and i will hopefully play them for as long in the future. The stereotype that you are wasting money on gaming computer just makes me sick. I like playing games and yes I need 3080Ti and 10900K overclocked to 5.2 GHz. I want to enjoy games with all settings maxed out and high fps. I need 1000€ ultra wide monitor. That is my passion and i don't see anything wrong with that. I also support and praise people for the over the top enthusiast builds.

I am usualy very smart with sending money. I don't like overpaying for things. I won't buy everything in a single store if there is a drinks store just down the street where I can buy water and juices for 10% less. To give you an example. You would be surprised how much money you save like that. But if the best GPU costs 1200€ and there is no alternative I don't mind buying it.

Yes it is a lot of money but if you like playing games on sky high details or just like having shiny things go for it.

People can spend their money on what they like but due to many people this generation, 2000 series, Outright telling Nvidia, Which I have also stupidly done "It's completely ok that you doubled the price of the new generation, Please keep putting the prices up, We're totally ok with it" that's the only problem I have with this situation because I can see where this is going, Nvidia have seen people will keep spending more and more, Not because Nvidia need it but because they can keep putting the prices up and people will keep paying it like mindless consumers.

 

[trawetSluaP]

For the RTX 2000 series, the cooler was vastly improved, RTX and DLSS was introduced. It's not like that was a jump in price for nothing.

It's like any high-end top of the line tech, look at the PG35VQ or Acers equivalent. They are insanely expensive but full of the best tech including a FLAD VA Panel, G-Sync Ultimate etc. If you want the best you have to pay for it.

The way you look at it everything is overpriced... I remember 15 years ago I could get the very latest, highest tier football boots for £100-£120. Now days you're looking at £250+.

 

[Dicehunter]

For the RTX 2000 series, the cooler was vastly improved, RTX and DLSS was introduced. It's not like that was a jump in price for nothing.

It's like any high-end top of the line tech, look at the PG35VQ or Acers equivalent. They are insanely expensive but full of the best tech including a FLAD VA Panel, G-Sync Ultimate etc. If you want the best you have to pay for it.

The way you look at it everything is overpriced... I remember 15 years ago I could get the very latest, highest tier football boots for £100-£120. Now days you're looking at £250+.

1080 Ti to 2080 Ti is roughly a 30% performance increase with a 60% price increase, That is terrible no matter which way you look at it, Nvidia's pricing with the RTX line was an experiment to see if people would pay it, People paid it and now Nvidia can continue with the price rises.

 

[trawetSluaP]

1080 Ti to 2080 Ti is roughly a 30% performance increase with a 60% price increase, That is terrible no matter which way you look at it, Nvidia's pricing with the RTX line was an experiment to see if people would pay it, People paid it and now Nvidia can continue with the price rises.

So you don't even take into account the redesigned cooler and new tech added for the new series of cards?

If your favourite monitor was re-released with full G-Sync having previously been a FreeSync monitor, with a £100 premium, would you consider it stupid as it's the same monitor?

Unfortunately, there's nothing else close to the 2080Ti at the moment for us to compare.

 

[Dicehunter]

So you don't even take into account the redesigned cooler and new tech added for the new series of cards?

If your favourite monitor was re-released with full G-Sync having previously been a FreeSync monitor, with a £100 premium, would you consider it stupid as it's the same monitor?

Unfortunately, there's nothing else close to the 2080Ti at the moment for us to compare.

A redesigned cooler is pennies compared to R&D costs of an actual GPU, As I said, Experiment, I can pretty much guarantee the 3000 series will be even higher in price.

 

[trawetSluaP]

A redesigned cooler is pennies compared to R&D costs of an actual GPU, As I said, Experiment, I can pretty much guarantee the 3000 series will be even higher in price.

I'm actually thinking they will be similar.

We also need to take DLSS into account.

Being able to play Death Stranding at 4K 60FPS in a 2060 is no joke. Admittedly it did not have anywhere near as much impact on release. but has to be taken into consideration.

With rumours of it being more software reliant than hardware it means more devs could implement it. If they do then it's a game changer IMO.

 

[grec]

The pricing points are primarily decided based on competition, the existence of given product lines are primarily decided by the sales of the previous generation.

If sales of an expensive, risky part genuinely on the limit of modern silicon manufacturing like a TU102 die (Titan/RTX2080Ti) were bad they they wouldn't be out here selling the successor for £700 at launch, they just wouldn't have made a consumer successor at all, see how AMD changes their stack for profitability for instance, if NVidia were put in a similar situation we'd have seen the same from them, a return to a 2012 style stack essentially, it's the only way that makes sense when considering risk (of having to sell parts at a loss potentially not too long after the product launches).

Similarly NVidia doesn't decide whether to release an even higher end die based on seeing where AMD are around launch. The consumer dies being taken forward for full release, and therefore rough price points, will be decided about 18 months before product launch. They can fiddle the pricing £100 or so in the last month or two, maybe tweak final clocks or enabled shader counts a bit if they're several months away, but that's more or less the extent of a tech companies "reactions".

Pricing is higher on top end parts now because the GPU market is large enough for more niche price points to become economically viable for at least one of the companies competing within it. Pricing for the top end part used to be lower because the GPU market was a niche market as a whole so the top end part was never "cutting edge" in terms of what was possible in a given generations silicon. The gap between the mainstream performance and top end performance is now bigger than ever, which you can mathematically verify, hence why the gap in pricing is bigger than ever. And all of this makes sense to the market because... we now also have the biggest gap in display resolution/frame rate from mainstream to top end we've possibly ever seen. Who needs a card x2 more powerful than the mainstream? Well, someone driving x4 as many pixels of course!

 

[Avet]

I don't blame Nvidia for horror pricing. They are doing what everyone else would do if they are the only provider of products. Even I, or any of you would do the same thing. Intel did it for years.

Blame AMD or other possible competition. Because Nvidia has no competition almost at all. Yea there are low end AMD cards, but even there Nvidia is outselling them. (In recent Mindfactory report)

From mid range above Nvidia is unmached for a decade...

We will see what happens with new gen cards, but for last few years I didn't concider AMD Raden Group to be competition to Nvidia.

 

[AlienALX]

I don't blame Nvidia for horror pricing. They are doing what everyone else would do if they are the only provider of products. Even I, or any of you would do the same thing. Intel did it for years.

Blame AMD or other possible competition. Because Nvidia has no competition almost at all. Yea there are low end AMD cards, but even there Nvidia is outselling them. (In recent Mindfactory report)

From mid range above Nvidia is unmached for a decade...

We will see what happens with new gen cards, but for last few years I didn't concider AMD Raden Group to be competition to Nvidia.

Look I am kinda with both of you guys. Or rather, all of you.

GPUs are stupid money now. You can't blame any one for anything because shock horror, this is business. If any one was under the illusion that Nvidia make cards for fans and do it to make them happy? haha, you are sorely mistaken.

There is a point in "We have ourselves to blame". We do. No one here is innocent of not spending too much on a GPU and waving a green flag to Nvidia. No one. Dice can say what he likes but I think sometimes he forgets how good my memory is. He can blame things on his uncle and yada ya, whatever. If he was that dead against it he would have politely told his uncle that he wasn't going to enable Nvidia. But he didn't, and he continues to do so (and other companies).

I don't blame him for that. However, it is kinda annoying when someone plays the manic preacher. We're all the same. We love technology, we love the hardware and we love our PCs. All of us. If we all had the disposable income every single one of us here would be rocking the most elite system we could. Not one person on this forum doesn't waste every penny of what they can afford to waste on a PC. From the guys running RX 580s etc, to us with the 2080Tis.

And I can prove this very easily. For years I had not bought a new Nvidia GPU. Not one. The last new one I had bought before the 20 series was two Titan Black. The third one I hunted down used. I'm very picky about who I buy used stuff from. Some people manhandle it, some treat their stuff like dog doo. Any way, yeah, until my 2070 Super I had not bought a new Nvidia GPU in about 7 years.

My Titan XP was used, and so on and so on. Titan Maxwell, used.. etc.

Then I had a £7000+ windfall. Money I did not know was coming, and didn't need or was expecting. So I blew a good chunk of it (about £4500) on a PC, monitor and VR headset. Was it stupid? nope. The last time this happened I did *exactly* the same thing. And the time before that, and the time before that. I have now built three sick rigs. And, if the same happens in a few years? I will do exactly the same thing.

So, if I had that money all of the time? well there ain't much more to life now than rewarding yourself is there? that is what it is all about.

The funny thing is that most people who are complaining about hardware prices do so because they have been priced out. So, why that should p155 Dice off so much? IDK. Not like he doesn't have the money. That said I've noticed him up on his soap box again lately about loads of stuff, so it may be something to do with his mood or something.

There is no point complaining any more. No one hears you, no one cares. It's the same way as always as in, if you don't want to partake in something you should just quietly abstain. No one listens to criticism any more, most brush it away or pay for it to go, that is how our society is now.

 

[grec]

I think this idea that less people buying = cheaper prices is somewhat misguided anyway. These parts are designed to generate profits at lowly selling volumes, because they can't realistically manufacture that many of them. If parts that have genuinely low yields and a real hard limit on output are sold at too low of a price then they'd just constantly be sold out, like all these competitive AMD parts on launch. An optimal (from a businesses view) price has to reflect the availability of the product, and 750mm^2 monolithic dies couldn't be produced in the volumes for everyone willing to spend £600 on a GPU whether NVidia wanted to or could or not, so the price is nudged up until demand reduces to match availability, this "apex" is where you get peak profits on hardware with more challenging manufacturing processes.

In order for competition or reduced sales to bring the price down, demand has to drop below availability, which is very unlikely to happen with hard to manufacture dies sought out in their thousands by billion dollar industries.

 

[ImprovizoR]

I think this idea that less people buying = cheaper prices is somewhat misguided anyway.

Only when the product is priced realistically. But when the prices are inflated, then the law of supply and demand is in full effect.

 

[grec]

Only when the product is priced realistically. But when the prices are inflated, then the law of supply and demand is in full effect.

You've summed up my argument perfectly.

What do you get when supply is low(Because they specifically designed the part to be on the cutting edge of manufacturability because they could do), and the demand is always (relatively) sky high from enterprise customers? High prices. What do you get when demand is so far beyond supply that consumer buying pressure is irrelevant? Always high prices.

If we were talking about 400mm^2 parts they could whack out low risk like nobodies business then sure, but not with parts where they're initially producing more dud silicon than sellable products.

What happens if NVidia can't sell their dies for £1300 a piece to consumers? They sell them to enterprise customers at £3000 a piece with a few tweaks and more validation instead, if demand drops too low, they're more likely to drop the enterprise prices than the consumer ones in times of high competition.

TL;DR: Market forces go beyond a single relationship

 

[ImprovizoR]

Market forces go beyond a single relationship

Sure. And since Nvidia commits fraud like it's going out of style, it should come at a cost for them, not for the consumers. How many times does Nvidia have to lie to you to lose your trust? Because my threshold is one, when it's as cynical as how they do it.