WYP
News Guru
AMD's releasing their fastest gaming processor next month.
Read more about AMD's Ryzen 7000X3D launch date.
Read more about AMD's Ryzen 7000X3D launch date.
AMD reveals Ryzen 7000 X3D's release date - Zen 4 with a Gaming Boost
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AngryGoldfish
Old N Gold
I wonder whether AMD are waiting to see how popular these are before dropping prices on their motherboards. I kind of hope these flop like Zen 4 so that AMD are forced to drop prices.
AlienALX
Well-known member
It's not AMD charging the prices on the boards. With competition this strong you would think someone would make a cut price board to sell well. The fact they have not points back to the real problem with the boards, which is the traces and things needed for PCIE5.
That is why the boards are so expensive.
I really don't understand why AMD were so gung ho about PCIE5. Maybe they thought it would give them some sort of edge over Intel but people are not thick. What I mean is every one knows you don't even need a PCIE4 SSD yet, let alone a PCIE5 one that isn't even available yet.
Now sure, some GPUs now need PCIE4 to perform properly, so fair play to that. Once again though PCIE5 will offer nothing for so long that by the time you need it your board will be an antique. Same goes for PCIE5 SSDs. People have been ranting on about directstorage for years now. Where is it? same goes for Mgpu and so on. None of it was ever used.
If Xbox was the leading console platform (it isn't) then maybe we would see more of those things. Thing is it's not, not by a long way, so why would you bother spending even $1 more on development for something hardly any one will use?
The problem with these boards is that they use PCIE5. Not anything else. This leads to high cost to manufacture and that is all passed onto the buyer. For something they don't even need, let alone want.
AngryGoldfish
Old N Gold
Are you saying PCIe Gen 5 causes a motherboard that once was €150 to now be €280?
AlienALX
Well-known member
KingNosser
Well-known member
Yep pci-e5 does need a fair bit more support to get the speed out of it.
But like any new tech wait a gen and buy the old way cheaper, so i'll wait another 2 gens hopefully on GPU and pick up a 8900xtx or something.
But like any new tech wait a gen and buy the old way cheaper, so i'll wait another 2 gens hopefully on GPU and pick up a 8900xtx or something.
AngryGoldfish
Old N Gold
I can't find any evidence of that. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, but all I can find is people saying what you said; no evidence besides that.
AlienALX
Well-known member
For PCIE to work they need to redesign everything dude. It needs as short traces as possible to stop noise from causing corrupt data, and the traces need to be insulated and thicker to boot.
That is why they cost what they do.
I mean, there could be something to the conspiracy theory that AMD are charging out the ass prices for the chipsets and licenses, but there is no evidence of that and lots of evidence that PCIE5 boards are very expensive to manufacture.
Price fixing could well exist between AMD and Nvidia, but trust me all of the Taiwan companies (MSI, Giga, Asus etc) are ferocious in competition. So you WOULD see a cut price board to get one up over their competition otherwise.
The very fact the cheap low rent boards cost double compared to last round says it all IMO. Whereas on Intel? they just don't. They cost the same.
This is hurting AMD no doubt at all in my mind. None. We've all seen the sales figures for the 7000 series.
AngryGoldfish
Old N Gold
I couldn't find any further information, so I'll just take your word for it. I don't know much about motherboard design or PCIe 5. You're quite right that if MSI could undercut ASUS then they would, so that's good reason to agree with you.
I did find information that PCIe 6 is going to be cheaper oddly enough and is not far away from implementation.
AlienALX
Well-known member
Exactly. Asrock are very well known for cutting corners. They've released a whole ton of boards that just don't have the VRMs needed to run the CPUs they say they support.
Case in point back in the 990FX days (Bulldozer and Pile-driver) they sold the "990FX extreme 3". It had a 4 phase VRM for a CPU that even at stock pulled around 200w. It couldn't even keep up with the 8320 at stock. The reason? A pretend high end board with the top end chipset with every other corner cut. Brown PCB that was really thin and so on.
So if say, MSI could beat everyone else by £50? They would. See also the X570 board they made with VRM under the board with no cooling to cut cost. Again it couldn't run anything with more cores than a 3600 without throttling to merry heck, but hey it was £170 or so.
Problem with the 7000 series is that AMD now rule the server space. By a long way, so you can fully expect server hand-me-downs *and* you will pay for it. See also my PCIE5 rant. It's not necessary, it's not needed, but they don't care as it's the direction they are trying to steer people in.
And they're getting a bit arrogant and complacent IMO. The leads they have gained against Intel? Well, we can clearly see why when they were winning last time they ballsed it all up and nearly ceased to exist.
AngryGoldfish
Old N Gold
I do think AMD are starting to see things a bit clearer. The X variants haven't actually gone back up in price since the non-X variants were announced. AMD know they aren't selling many 7000 series chips and motherboards and seem to want to change that. And the 5800X3D just saw another price drop even though it's their best selling chip. There's a lot of talk regarding Nvidia and Lovelace as well, that they'll be forced to reduce prices, because even the 4070Ti isn't selling when it's better value than the 4080. And the 4090 sales have slowed down as well seemingly. RDNA3 are seeing slight reductions in prices already also. They're only minor, but that's usually a tell-tale sign of better things to come.
AlienALX
Well-known member
PC gaming was usually quite cheap. Mostly because hardly any one gamed on PC. Especially during Xbox 360 times. So back then £250 would get you a top end GPU. And it wasn't that long ago tbh, so the whole inflation argument doesn't hold up. A PC game at that time in the UK was about £25 too, as there are no license fees to pay on PC.
Then all of a sudden PC games cost as much as, or more, than console titles where they did pay a license and the hardware rockets in price. The reason? popularity.
The original Xbox one and PS4 were, IMO, a bit lame. People realised how much better and more powerful a PC was, then you have battle royale games launched and yeah the next thing you know it has soared in popularity and price.
One of my online friends used to work for Asus in Taiwan. He used to do an article in Custom PC called "The man in Taiwan" and he would give inside info on what was going on. In 2011 he wrote an article basically pointing out that within a few years most of the board makers would go bust. Not Asus, but Gigabyte, Asrock and even MSI were doing so poorly that they could not exist as they were.
Then look at now. They are all still here, and you can now spend £1500 on a motherboard.
It always made me laugh at how when something is more popular it goes up in price, yet when it's not it goes down in price. Surely you would think that to make ends meet it would go up in price when less people were spending on it, then down in price due to more sales and volume of?
I mean, doing that (turn and burn as it is known) is a well known business strategy. Higher volume and less profit? versus lower volume and same profit.
Problem is, and it is a huge problem now, is that every one wants top dollar for EVERYTHING. Everything has been micro managed to buggery, and every single last penny is being wrung out. There is no such thing as competition now. It's a friggin free for all and basically "If you don't want it? well F you, because someone else will" rather than "Here, look at this lovely product, which is better than others because of X Y or Z".
And this is all down to exposure, and basically buying the salesmen and markets. Or in other words? Youtube. Only one or two of them pointed out the bent and dodgy tactics MSI and others were pulling. And how Gigabyte would release a mobo, get it reviewed on social media, then silently fart all over it with a Rev 2 with half the VRM and so on. No one is punished any more for doing stuff like that, it's just a bunch of belmets nodding along telling you how fantastic everything is.
Word of mouth used to make or break a company. If they sold crap? word would spread. How do you replace that when every one is afraid to say something negative?
The biggest problem in the last decade, for me, is how people turn this into their job and their livelihood. At which point if they DARE to say something negative? they get struck off, lose money and make less money than others.
As such? even when Linus is trying to be negative about something it is always a back handed piece of negativity with all of the strong points included. Why? how the hell can you even so much as TRY and justify £2000 for a GPU?
However, finally now we are slowly seeing an end to the "Shut up and take my money" generation. Now that it is quickly dawning on them that times change, and life can be a bit crap at times financially. And sometimes you won't have any to spend, let alone brazenly make ridiculous comments like that which serve only to egg these companies on and let them go the whole hog by not only taking down your pants, but giving you a good rogering whilst they are at it.
It's utter madness. As someone who was born in, and grew up in, the 70s? bloody hell you were lucky to have a TV. At all. And they cost more then than they do now.
No one I knew or grew up with had bugger all. So, when times like this happen? I guess I am lucky and prepared for it. But that cockiness and at points arrogance is now changing drastically. Let's see how they feel when they are paying £17 a day just to heat their house.
KingNosser
Well-known member
My first 21 inch colour TV cost £300 i'd had a small b&w set for my gaming then, times were very different on my atari 2600.
I feel people are voting with their wallets more now, just need to force the change as a collective thou in my view tech will slow down due to that as the R&D costs are massive so maybe they will invest less and over a longer time period.
My Corsair 750D was 2nd hand off ebay for £70 to get a case like that now would be a lot more and my issue with most modern towers is a lack of hdd bays, they are selling less for more of the price, next best case for me was a fractal define R7 XL not much else to choose from for hdd bays thou did see one by antec but tbh it was cramped at the front.
I think the main thing with the younger generation is most of us had nothing much growing up but know what we wanted so our generation provides that for the younger people and they become used to this and then in turn take it more for granted.
Prices need to come down in the mid range alot a £500 mid range PC should be a thing it helps to grow the market and when they are older are more inclined to spend for the higher end, but without these kind of options the market is coming to a halt as there is less midrange to be had and the top end is too high just unbalanced scale atm.
My nephew was scrambling to build a mid range system and the GPU was the issue in terms of cost and as i had a spare 970 laying around it was his best option and for gratis and threw in a old monitor saved him a fair bit of cost and the girls play fornite on that now.
Just needs to be sorted out maybe use older nodes for the lower end and save the cost pass it onto the familys it's mainly us older folk that are more keen for higher end tech but atm we are getting taken behind the bike sheds and sadly not so romantic as that lol
I feel people are voting with their wallets more now, just need to force the change as a collective thou in my view tech will slow down due to that as the R&D costs are massive so maybe they will invest less and over a longer time period.
My Corsair 750D was 2nd hand off ebay for £70 to get a case like that now would be a lot more and my issue with most modern towers is a lack of hdd bays, they are selling less for more of the price, next best case for me was a fractal define R7 XL not much else to choose from for hdd bays thou did see one by antec but tbh it was cramped at the front.
I think the main thing with the younger generation is most of us had nothing much growing up but know what we wanted so our generation provides that for the younger people and they become used to this and then in turn take it more for granted.
Prices need to come down in the mid range alot a £500 mid range PC should be a thing it helps to grow the market and when they are older are more inclined to spend for the higher end, but without these kind of options the market is coming to a halt as there is less midrange to be had and the top end is too high just unbalanced scale atm.
My nephew was scrambling to build a mid range system and the GPU was the issue in terms of cost and as i had a spare 970 laying around it was his best option and for gratis and threw in a old monitor saved him a fair bit of cost and the girls play fornite on that now.
Just needs to be sorted out maybe use older nodes for the lower end and save the cost pass it onto the familys it's mainly us older folk that are more keen for higher end tech but atm we are getting taken behind the bike sheds and sadly not so romantic as that lol
