AMD Mantle Update for Battlefield 4 delayed again - Pushed to February

[barnsley]

you know that the open standard thing is really just a PR stunt to make nvidia look like dicks.

Its not hard to do that with the whole G sync cost thing at the moment. I find it amusing about AMD being all "open standard" as their drivers for linux etc is crap.

 

[SieB]

you know that the open standard thing is really just a PR stunt to make nvidia look like dicks.

But it's not.

Also competition is a good thing. If Mantle improves performance then any serious competition would have to further improve performance even further for it to be considered competition at all.

Explain how by having a few people compete to try and squeeze the most performance out of a game whilst making it less demanding being a bad thing? The problem today is there is no one doing this and things aren't improving. At least AMD is doing something and trying to make things better.

If more people try to improve things then only good can come of it. Games are buggy because game developers rush the game out, if they took their time and released it when it was ready instead of when the publishers told them to, then we wouldn't have buggy games.

Mantle benefits everyone, if not with Mantle itself but by shaking up the industry and forcing others to improve and make things better. If DX12 does blow Mantle out of the water then that is also a good thing because performance will have yet again been improved for everyone. And if someone comes out with another API that further increases performance and blows Mantle and DX12 out of the water, yet again that is a good thing and it moves things forward and improves the quality of games and how thy are made.

There is to much closed mindnes surrounding Mantle and people seeing it as a AMD only thing and wanting it fail because it's AMD. Except it's not a AMD only thing, it's something that effects everyone, drives competiton and improves things for game development and pushing it further.

 

[SeekaX]

Its not hard to do that with the whole G sync cost thing at the moment. I find it amusing about AMD being all "open standard" as their drivers for linux etc is crap.

it's the same story with the two, with the difference that nvidia is not pretending like they are doing open standards.

But it's not.

Also competition is a good thing. If Mantle improves performance then any serious competition would have to further improve performance even further for it to be considered competition at all.

Explain how by having a few people compete to try and squeeze the most performance out of a game whilst making it less demanding being a bad thing? The problem today is there is no one doing this and things aren't improving. At least AMD is doing something and trying to make things better.

If more people try to improve things then only good can come of it. Games are buggy because game developers rush the game out, if they took their time and released it when it was ready instead of when the publishers told them to, then we wouldn't have buggy games.

Mantle benefits everyone, if not with Mantle itself but by shaking up the industry and forcing others to improve and make things better. If DX12 does blow Mantle out of the water then that is also a good thing because performance will have yet again been improved for everyone. And if someone comes out with another API that further increases performance and blows Mantle and DX12 out of the water, yet again that is a good thing and it moves things forward and improves the quality of games and how thy are made.

There is to much closed mindnes surrounding Mantle and people seeing it as a AMD only thing and wanting it fail because it's AMD. Except it's not a AMD only thing, it's something that effects everyone, drives competiton and improves things for game development and pushing it further.

This is not the good type of competition. The good kind of competition bases on the same conditions, i.e. GPU vs GPU. if both manufacturers release their own APIs that is just going to cause extra work for the devs, more bugs because they need to fix the game twice pretty much and more money out of your pocket for privileges.
It's not open standard, else nvidia cards would benefit from it as well. You can give your opponent a highly promising gadget and call him an equal, but without the manual he will never figure out how to use it. That's just marketing bullshit to make themselves look better.
Quit with the "aww that poor poor manufacturer AMD getting bullied by the people on the internet" story, if nvidia would've released mantle i would be saying the same.

 

[SieB]

it's the same story with the two, with the difference that nvidia is not pretending like they are doing open standards.



This is not the good type of competition. The good kind of competition bases on the same conditions, i.e. GPU vs GPU. if both manufacturers release their own APIs that is just going to cause extra work for the devs, more bugs because they need to fix the game twice pretty much and more money out of your pocket for privileges.
It's not open standard, else nvidia cards would benefit from it as well. You can give your opponent a highly promising gadget and call him an equal, but without the manual he will never figure out how to use it. That's just marketing bullshit to make themselves look better than DX12.
Quit with the "aww that poor poor manufacturer AMD getting bullied by the people on the internet" story, if nvidia would've released mantle i would be saying the same.

What don't you understand about games being buggy because they are rushed and not because of the work involved?
It's like you don't want things to evolve and get better, Mantle is a steeping stone towards better things. Whether it means DX12 being even better or another API being even better DX12.
Mantle is what will push things forward and offer improvement in both game development and game performance.
All competition is good competition because it's what drives things forward and improves things. Without it things stay the same and never improve.

Mantle is also open standard, it was designed to run on GCN but it's not Proprietary. It's open to the developer and it's in their hands, if they want to make it work on Nvidia cards or not then that is up to them but there is nothing stopping them from doing it.

And awwww AMD getting bullied is not my sob story, its a common thing on the internet and it's sad to see. I'm so sick of people looking at things as AMD vs Nvida and thinking their chosen brand is better than the other and reading their smug comments and slurs.

Mantle is about improving game development and performance, it could be made by Tesco's for all I care. But as usually because it's AMD there are all the childish idiots that want to see it fail or don't want is to do well because of the simple fact it's AMD.

It's not about who made it, it's about what it offers, how it improves things for the industry, people who play games and creating competition which will further push things and make even greater improvements down the line.

 

[SeekaX]

What don't you understand about games being buggy because they are rushed and not because of the work involved?
It's like you don't want things to evolve and get better, Mantle is a steeping stone towards better things. Whether it means DX12 being even better or another API being even better.
Mantle is what will push things forward and offer improvement in both game development and game performance.
All competition is good competition because it's what drives things forward and improves things. Without it things stay the same and never improve.

Mantle is also open standard, it was designed to run on GCN but it's not Proprietary. It's open to the developer and it's in their hands, if they want to make it work on Nvidia cards or not then that is up to them but there is nothing stopping them from doing it.

And awwww AMD getting bullied is not my sob story, its a common thing on the internet and it's sad to see. I'm so sick of people looking at things as AMD vs Nvida and thinking their chosen brand is better than the other and their smug comments and slurs.

Mantle is about improving game development and performance, it could be made by Tesco's for all I care. But as usually because it's AMD there are all the childish idiots that want to see it fail or don't want is to do well because of the simple fact it's AMD.

It's not about who made it, it's about what it offers, how it improves things for the industry, people who play games and creating competition which will further push things and make even greater improvements down the line.

And that time for development is going to pop out of nowhere just because a new API is around? look at the title of this thread, mantle has been delayed again because it is a lot of work and because devs need to put a lot of time into fixing the bugs that happen in different APIs. Publishers won't grant devs more time just because there is more stuff to fix.
Also there is always that subliminal message in your posts of me being one of those people bashing mantle just because it's by AMD, i don't do that. i don't even say that mantle itself is going to be bad, it's most likely going to be good, but what a lot of people seem to forget is that there is a whole industry being affected by it outside of performance boosts. Mantle needs to fail because of the company which developed it, not because they aren't capable of creating a proper API but just because they are the wrong people to make it. Even tesco would be a better choice, just because they are a third party and can unite all manufacturers under one banner which mantle will never be able to do.
This cool competition of yours is going to cause a shitstorm of stupid proportions if no third party developer can make it irrelevant, i sure as hell hope that nvidia isn't going to chant in with this madness.

 

[barnsley]

Quit with the "aww that poor poor manufacturer AMD getting bullied by the people on the internet" story, if nvidia would've released mantle i would be saying the same.

You might have said the same, but trust me there are many people who only dig at mantle because it was created by AMD.

Anyway. Don't worry, Nvidia won't go make their own API. They're too busy with Gsync/ shield/PhysX and seem to be fearful of being called copycats. I imagine that mantle is only going to be in certain games as well(such as Star Citizen). You must also remember that developing stuff in mantle isn't a whole different API, its supposedly not that much extra work and can be done in a few weeks (unless your name is EA/probably anyone who makes an AAA shooter). Nothing will be natively developed in mantle because not everyone has an AMD graphics card and AMD don't pay off developers (as much). The same reasoning could be applied to physx. Does PhysX require the whole studio to work on it? Heck I don't even know why people are worried about Mantle leading to an APIopocalypse, its not even in a game yet. It'll improve performance in any game that runs on that space RTS engine (the only people bar the Thief Devs who seem to be able to work with mantle).

You are right though, everyone should be discouraging Manufacturer only software/stupid hardware. This goes for G sync, free sync, PhysX,TressFX etc etc. Its a shame not enough game developers can come up with their own stuff that improve game performance regardless of what Graphics card you have. I would gladly kickstart someone who could create an API that worked with every hardware config out there without a bias. Why? Because my not everyone has a choice in what hardware they can buy. I really hope that one day someone steps up to the mantle (no pun intended) and creates something that is better than mantle, better than all these irritating little bits and pieces.
/rant over ( you can tell I had a bad day, ye? )
sorry for the small essay everyone. Actually it seems quite small compared to some of the responses. ooops
OH YEAH ITS COMING OUT FOR OTHER CARDS (aka Nvidia/ intel integrated :^))AS WELL ALTHOUGH IT IS AMD FIRST. Thought I might outline that as well . Think about it, not even AMD's cpu marketing idiot pool wouldn't market mantle with Nvidia cards.

 

[SieB]

And that time for development is going to pop out of nowhere just because a new API is around? look at the title of this thread, mantle has been delayed again because it is a lot of work and because devs need to put a lot of time into fixing the bugs that happen in different APIs. Publishers won't grant devs more time just because there is more stuff to fix.
Also there is always that subliminal message in your posts of me being one of those people bashing mantle just because it's by AMD, i don't do that. i don't even say that mantle itself is going to be bad, it's most likely going to be good, but what a lot of people seem to forget is that there is a whole industry being affected by it outside of performance boosts.

Mantle has been delayed because BF4 was rushed in the first place. If it wasn't rushed and released when it was ready then Mantle wouldn't have been delayed.

I don't know where you are getting this subliminal message from but i'm speaking in general and not at any one person in particular.

Mantle needs to fail because of the company which developed it, not because they aren't capable of creating a proper API but just because they are the wrong people to make it. Even tesco would be a better choice, just because they are a third party and can unite all manufacturers under one banner which mantle will never be able to do.
This cool competition of yours is going to cause a shitstorm of stupid proportions if no third party developer can make it irrelevant, i sure as hell hope that nvidia isn't going to chant in with this madness.

But as I said, no one else is doing anything and at least AMD are. It will push people to do the same and as I also said this is a good thing because it will further improve things.

We need competition to advance things, there are no third parties that would create an API by themselves, non that are big enough to take on MS or AMD. Even if there were, at some point down the line they would end up getting attached to Nvidia or AMD, most likely the one who pays them the most.
Either way would still result in the same situation.

 

[anti-duck]

Does anyone know if Mantle is going to be a PC only technology? Obviously Microsoft will use their own Direct3D API, but what about the PS4? I really can't see Mantle failing if it does appear on the PS4.

 

[barnsley]

Does anyone know if Mantle is going to be a PC only technology? Obviously Microsoft will use their own Direct3D API, but what about the PS4? I really can't see Mantle failing if it does appear on the PS4.

Considering the xbone is AMD based it should be interesting. I think however that consoles use their own API.

This is why I think AMD will sell Mantle to Microsoft, heck Sony and Microsoft are developing phones now together so why wouldn't they sell it to Microsoft?

 

[SeekaX]

We need competition to advance things, there are no third parties that would create an API by themselves, non that are big enough to take on MS or AMD. Even if there were, at some point down the line they would end up getting attached to Nvidia or AMD, most likely the one who pays them the most.
Either way would still result in the same situation.

the only positive thing i can see about mantle is that it will give MS a kick in the butt to work hard on DX12, but that is a risk i personally am not willing to take. AMD surely aren't doing this to force a better common API.

 

[barnsley]

AMD surely aren't doing this to force a better common API.

It does help their CPUs really do well against intel in games (one of the big things about mantle is how it uses all the cpu cores), which as we all know is where they only just still have a chance of doing battle in. So maaybe, just maybe they are trying to. Excluding streaming, not many games are that AMD cpu friendly bar Battlefield and crysis ( I think).
It'd also improve their apus, which aside from their newly announced ARM based Opteron server cpus seem to be their hope for survival in the cpu department.

 

[Zoot]

Well unless it shows up either tomorrow or Friday, it has slipped to February whatever way you look at it. So maybe the story linked in this thread is true after all.

Mantle will be interesting for sure, but I don't expect it to be a total game changer in the short term. Long term maybe, but it's all too hard to tell yet. We'll have to see how it plays out over the next few years.

Does anyone know if Mantle is going to be a PC only technology? Obviously Microsoft will use their own Direct3D API, but what about the PS4? I really can't see Mantle failing if it does appear on the PS4.

The xBONE is DirectX only. Microsoft have said as much:
http://techreport.com/news/25514/microsoft-mantle-wont-work-on-the-xbox-one

To my knowledge, Sony haven't said anything about it working/not working yet.

 

[WYP]

a lot of the problems with todays releases are that not enough time is being put into bug fixing and with all the alphas betas and games at other "incomplete" stages are being released (rust, dayZ and others come to mind), things are likely to get worse in the future. While I understand that these are marketed as early access, the fact that the developers get a lot of money before release means that there is no incentive to finish.

While what I said above doesn't clearly relate to BF4 but it looks like the way things are going.

BF4 was released early to beat COD to market and maximize sales, the game sadly was not finished leaving loads of bugs etc behind. This left dice in a situation where the bugs which were present in all versions of the game required individual patches for each platform and then there was all the version specific bugs. Mantle has been delayed to this point as DiCE have been forced to allocate their resources to bug fixing ONLY, therefore not much time has been spent on mantle since the bug hunt started, it's not that it is hard to develop for/on (at least going by what several devs have been saying).

as for development time fro AMD mantle, so long as the game engine is developed to work with mantle then the development of a game will not take considerably longer, a developer from Oxide games said it took one man less than 2 months to port their Nitrous engine to mantle and now that their engine supports it their games will with minimal extra effort.

 

[SeekaX]

It does help their CPUs really do well against intel in games (one of the big things about mantle is how it uses all the cpu cores), which as we all know is where they only just still have a chance of doing battle in. So maaybe, just maybe they are trying to. Excluding streaming, not many games are that AMD cpu friendly bar Battlefield and crysis ( I think).
It'd also improve their apus, which aside from their newly announced ARM based Opteron server cpus seem to be their hope for survival in the cpu department.

and then Intel releases 8 core CPUs and the party is over.
i don't think AMD should grab for the stars there, lots of potential to get burned badly.

 

[barnsley]

and then Intel releases 8 core CPUs and the party is over.
i don't think AMD should grab for the stars there, lots of potential to get burned badly.

There is reaching for the stars and then there is actually making use of a cpu's potential. Not every AMD cpu was your 4100 . I can totally see why you hated that cpu.
I always use streaming as an example as from what Tech Syndicate (the guys who made that video about the 8350 vs the 3770k) claim the joke (cpu that is) 9590 is slightly better than a 3930k for streaming to twitch at 1080p and are releasing a video on it soon. Streaming is one of the only things that make full use of cpu cores.

 

[SeekaX]

There is reaching for the stars and then there is actually making use of a cpu's potential. Not every AMD cpu was your 4100 . I can totally see why you hated that cpu.
I always use streaming as an example as from what Tech Syndicate (the guys who made that video about the 8350 vs the 3770k) claim the joke (cpu that is) 9590 is slightly better than a 3930k for streaming to twitch at 1080p and are releasing a video on it soon. Streaming is one of the only things that make full use of cpu cores.

a 9590 has two cores more and is running at 5GHz.
The cores in general aren't that great from AMD, so if Intel starts with the 8core/16threads i7s AMD better either have a new amazing architecture or start gluing cpus together.

 

[barnsley]

a 9590 has two cores more and is running at 5GHz.
The cores in general aren't that great from AMD, so if Intel starts with the 8core/16threads i7s AMD better either have a new amazing architecture or start gluing cpus together.

Compare prices for the 9590 vs the 3930k. Technically intel already do large number of cores per cpu (xeons) and amd do glue cpus together (ish) in the server market already.

 

[NeverBackDown]

Now lets keep this thread constructive please.. last couple pages have not been helping much in that respect.

This AMD GPU and Nvidia GPU Mantle crap is uber annoying... Not once have i seen anyone point out that Mantle will benfit CPUs more than GPUs. Its the CPU that sends info to the GPU and as such is the first bottleneck. Mantle allows Devs to control what data does and not the Drivers.. hence why drivers are freaken massive in size(they do to much). Mantle will work on any Intel/Amd CPU and WILL run on Nvidia GPUs as much as Amds. Now AMD made this API so obviously they made it to better run on GCN so GCN alone gets a boost but other hardware does not(other hardware being Nvidia).


The reason Nvidia gets a performance boost as well(to an extent) is because in fact the CPU is being better optimized and the information being recieved by the GPU is exactly what it should be.

So in conclusion.. its one API that will work on any modern PC but could scale over to PS4(unconfirmed) which would be interesing tbh.. Xbone is where the problem lies.. it supports only DX. So essentially its all on its own there. devs will need to get fancy but tbh its not that hard.

 

[SeekaX]

Compare prices for the 9590 vs the 3930k. Technically intel already do large number of cores per cpu (xeons) and amd do glue cpus together (ish) in the server market already.

well yea, the price on intel is a lot higher but that is because they can pretty much do whatever they want. i wonder what the average lifespan of a 9590 is.
and with gluing CPUs together i meant literally selling CPUs in two packs, glued together

 

[barnsley]

well yea, the price on intel is a lot higher but that is because they can pretty much do whatever they want. i wonder what the average lifespan of a 9590 is.

The cpu isn't old enough to say yet . The 9590s are the 8350s but the creme de la creme. They can hit 5.0ghz on a lot less volts then 99% of the 8350s can. So I'd imagine they don't die as quick as you'd think.

-edit- the Xbone hasn't sold fantastically well and they're not as open to developers as Sony are so it might not be as massive of a bump as first thought.