Why The Gun In Civilization?

FragTek

New member
By Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret)

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force.

If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force.

The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a [armed] mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed.

People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level.

The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

It removes force from the equation...and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.
 
I concur, but just kind of a side thought. If everyone has a gun, doesn't that kind of re-negate it. Gay guy has a gun, the entire group has a gun, well... more death.
 
I was kinda thinking along the lines of the 220lb guy having a gun... u still get mugged, cept u possibly dead too now.
 
name='ionicle' said:
bah, there's too much death as it is, this would just cause more, dont need that :(

Retard TBH. You lot think people WANT to die? No... If both groups have guns they are less likely to engage in conflict as both parties know that their lives are on the line. I guess it's hard for some people to understand :rolleyes: I see it as pretty cut and dry.
 
name='FragTek' said:
Retard TBH. You lot think people WANT to die? No... If both groups have guns they are less likely to engage in conflict as both parties know that their lives are on the line. I guess it's hard for some people to understand :rolleyes: I see it as pretty cut and dry.

i dont think its a case of understanding, i think its a case of people opinions.

What about if both parties didnt have guns, would that not have the same effect?

i feel the opinions on this sort of stuff will differ (say americans and the british) hence why the americans have looser laws on guns ect.
 
name='nathan' said:
i dont think its a case of understanding, i think its a case of people opinions.

What about if both parties didnt have guns, would that not have the same effect?

i feel the opinions on this sort of stuff will differ (say americans and the british) hence why the americans have looser laws on guns ect.

No no, it's a case of understanding. You're bringing in opinion against the cold hard truth of the matter. Great you have an opinion, but it doesn't really mean jack when the facts are laid out on the table.

There's no way to ensure that both parties don't have guns, it's 101% impossible. Therefor that argument gets laid to rest.

Also, I shouldn't have to bring up that our Bill of Rights protects our right for law abiding citizens to own guns. No one wants to see guns in the hands of criminals, NO ONE. We have taken measures to make it harder for criminals to acquire them but if their's a will their's a way and nothing will ever change that unfortunately.
 
The concern for me is that a normal person on the street may not have the conviction to fire a gun, but a hardened criminal wouldn't blink at the thought. and what about the people who object to carrying a gun, what about if you're out jogging and don't carry a gun? what if you walk out the house without your gun?

The argument has a fatal flaw in assuming that all people will have a gun all of the time and that both people having a gun means that both have equal abilities and convictions to use the gun.
 
Right on Frag, and to those that say it causes more death think of this. You outlaw guns, now normal citizens don't have guns but criminals, who buy definition don't care about the law, still have guns. They now also know that the person they are going to try and mug, rob, etc are unarmed, so crime goes up. A mob of people with guns will still be detered by a person with a gun because they know that one of them will probably get shot.

@Kempez: It isn't completely about having a gun but the criminal thinking you might, also other citizens around could potentially have guns. Part of the way it works is as a deterrent.
 
But the stats bear the facts out (couldn't be bothered for much googling, someone may want to)

Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):

Homicide Suicide Unintentional

USA 4.08 (1999) 6.08 (1999) 0.42 (1999)

Canada 0.54 (1999) 2.65 (1997) 0.15 (1997)

Switzerland 0.50 (1999) 5.78 (1998) -

Scotland 0.12 (1999) 0.27 (1999) -

England/Wales 0.12 (1999/00) 0.22 (1999) 0.01 (1999)

Japan 0.04* (1998) 0.04 (1995) <0.01 (1997)
 
name='Kempez' said:
But the stats bear the facts out (couldn't be bothered for much googling, someone may want to)

Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):

Homicide Suicide Unintentional

USA 4.08 (1999) 6.08 (1999) 0.42 (1999)

Canada 0.54 (1999) 2.65 (1997) 0.15 (1997)

Switzerland 0.50 (1999) 5.78 (1998) -

Scotland 0.12 (1999) 0.27 (1999) -

England/Wales 0.12 (1999/00) 0.22 (1999) 0.01 (1999)

Japan 0.04* (1998) 0.04 (1995) <0.01 (1997)

Statistics across different countries cannot be considered accurate considering the difference in people's culture, conditions, and history. I don't have time to verify it now, but I believe the gun crime in America has dropped since then and risen in the UK. I also believe they are contemplating arming the police in the UK now, am I correct?
 
arming the police, oh dear. I thought they were considering air-tasers rather than fire arms, and for baton rounds to be used rather than regular rounds in as many situations as possible.

To Frag, what about bribery. that,to me is neither reason nor force. It is exploitation of greed.

I think possibly, if you were to redefine your characteristics as persuasion, and coercion, it might be persuasion, but i think even that is pushing it.

I remember a story of two FBI agents getting mugged for all there equipment, including their guns....
 
I see the logic- every1 can defend themselves

But!!!

Didn't they see that everyone carrying a gun can easily tempt crimes and normal people into "killers"
 
name='mrapoc' said:
I see the logic- every1 can defend themselves

But!!!

Didn't they see that everyone carrying a gun can easily tempt crimes and normal people into "killers"

I know you didn't just say the last part... I know you didn't. You have just just made the assumption that all human beings with guns are crooks and killers at heart.
 
Also, statistics such as Kempez's are meaningless. The USA is so big, and so diverse that those numbers mean next to nothing when you consider some of the areas we have in the USA (ghetto's, etc). All of which crimes / suicides take place by people who shouldn't be allowed to have a gun in the first place, and banning guns would not help in the slightest.
 
I totally understand it man but what if say, gun accidently goes off...that accident could put someone down for man slaughter even if it was only used as a deterrant.

Say you have a gun, you see someone carrying a top of the range tv and u just happen to have something nearby to mask your face, all it takes is for you to point the gun at them, tell them to leave the tv and not make any sudden movement, you have the tv - they see your face, you take them to an ally and kill them...regretting it afterwards.

Many people can be caught in the moment and regret it later on.

Sure the victim can defend themselves but surely thats the police's job. Over here there is not one unpatrolled area. I agree with police being armed - imo guns being held legally can cause so many more victims rather than having the law of anyone found in possession will be arrested and prosecuted.

It works in its own way dont get me wrong but i feel the dangers involve outweigh the advantages. I dont wanna bring the uni killings into the equation (rip) but it is kinda relevant. The students could, yes, defend themselves which would have been a godsend, but think how many potential problems there could have been before the event with fist fights potentially turning bad...

So yeah, advantages and disadvantages
 
Its an ever going argument. The cold hard truth is that whether you have a gun or not (either side) it all comes down to who pulls the trigger first. Just becasue you have a gun dosent mean the other guy wont shoot first. Matter before logic. Just because both parties have a gun dosent mean nobody will fire. More than likely, somebody will die becasue they both have guns. If your down to a bar fight with no guns at least both go home or to the hospital. Just becasue i have a 9 dosent mean you dont have a 12 gauge shotgun that can blow my head off where i just elave a small bullet in you. See what im saying?

Just becasue you HAVE a gun dosent mean ppl will leave you alone. Usualy it means somebody will get a bigger gun to take you down. Or like me, will take the gun outa your hand by training and now its in YOUR face and you have no gun yet again. Always something to the equation.

Your points are validated, but not all true. Its an ever going argument as to whether having guns in everybodies hands is good or not. Bottom line it just causes more fear.
 
name='PP Mguire' said:
Its an ever going argument. The cold hard truth is that whether you have a gun or not (either side) it all comes down to who pulls the trigger first. Just becasue you have a gun dosent mean the other guy wont shoot first. Matter before logic. Just because both parties have a gun dosent mean nobody will fire. More than likely, somebody will die becasue they both have guns. If your down to a bar fight with no guns at least both go home or to the hospital. Just becasue i have a 9 dosent mean you dont have a 12 gauge shotgun that can blow my head off where i just elave a small bullet in you. See what im saying?

Just becasue you HAVE a gun dosent mean ppl will leave you alone. Usualy it means somebody will get a bigger gun to take you down. Or like me, will take the gun outa your hand by training and now its in YOUR face and you have no gun yet again. Always something to the equation.

Your points are validated, but not all true. Its an ever going argument as to whether having guns in everybodies hands is good or not. Bottom line it just causes more fear.

I completely agree.

I like the way kempez has posted his view with actual factual statistics aswell which aren't based on the whole population, but a proportion of it.

I agree with so many points people have made. I'm also disapointed by some of the attitude/aggression in this thread (mainly the namecalling).

I understand it is close to some people's hearts.

There are advantages and disadvantages, but at the end of the day it is the person who is holding the gun who has responsibility. Responsibility that I feel only certain people should have. Also as kempez said, a criminal will probably be more likely to pull the trigger than a average person.

Looking at it the other way tho, I agree that you should be able to defend your own land/house/items and think if you find someone in your house stealing, you should have the right to do as you wish without the risk of presecution.

I think if I was faced in that situation the person stealing wouldn't even see me coming as they'd be flat out on the floor within a split second :(

There were nights in my old house where me and my bro went out with a baseball bat and scared someone off. Luckily for them we didn't catch them tho. :(

So I guess I'm in between.
 
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