Need some help (probably by the end of today)

[d3fu5i0n]

Okay. I'll just copy and paste the quick conversation I've had with someone on YT...

Yes, it's a lot to read. But I hope you can help me guys...

Thanks.

Essentially, I'm trying to upgrade my GPUs, but would it be worth it? I have the chance here and now, do I "take it or leave it". The conversation I had explains what I am looking for and what I would be concerned about.

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Me:

I've got the chance (I live in the UK) to get some far more powerful GPUs for an AMAZING price. But I'm not sure if I will be bottlenecked by my CPU (or ANYTHING really) and if it is worth it.

Trying to get this sorted ASAP before they all go.

Stan:

what cpu? any quad core will work up to 2 cards AMD 5 series and above Nvidia 4 series and above, because of direct compute, cpu is the least important link, for example, I can run a bench with 3 580's at 3.8 GHz and get the exact same score as 4.5 I wouldnt go any less than a i7 low end setup, dont use socket 775 or the AMD equivilent. probly get a cheap set up with a desent chip and board for 350 U.S guess thats about 250 euro.

Me:

Q6700 @ 3.6GHz (10x 360 BC)

P5Q Premium [BIOS Rev. 2406]

CoolerMaster Hyper N520 with CM thermal compound.

Two Non-Ref 5770s atm in CF (8x, 8x), not going to OC, keeping warranties. One is just over 1 yr 3 months old, and the other 3 months old (roughly). X-MAS

The first 5770 cost me about £135 or £140

the next one cost me around £115

I can get a 5870 for £148

a 6850 for £135

and a 6870 for £165 [I think]

Now, I'm planning to go CrossFire again, as the P45 NB only handles CF and not SLI.

1 5870 should alleviate all my CF issues, especially Crysis 2.

I'm using an Antec 900 case by the way, with the black, extra fan section removed.

PSU is an XFX 650W XXX (Green Fan) Modular PSU.

Not sure what it can handle.

Stan:

all sounds awesome dude, 1 5870 should rock most any game maxed out, no bottleneck with that set up if your just running a 5870

Me:

Yes, that's the equivalent of my current CrossFire 5770 setup.

But what about two 5870s, or two 6850s, or even two 6870s?

The 5870 is a tad faster than the 5870 in general, the 6870 is faster in tessellation, and the CF scaling is near perfect on the 6K series as far as I've seen with benchmarks.

Stan:

your going from 128bit to 256 bit cards, also tesselation is better, you should see some increase but i would concentrate on new board, chip and memory first. its hard to put a V8 engine on a bicycle frame

Me:

Yeah, the throughput is better, and I know tessellation is better. AMD had to fight back when nVidia killed their 5K series on tessellation with their 4xx series.

So, seriously... there WILL be a bottleneck?

I'm going to use the other cards at my dad's partner's house. My dad is going to buy me parts so I can build a system there, so that I can be around them. So he'd pay a bit towards these.

But what about two 6850s...?

6850 CF vs 5770 CF with my Q6700 @ 3.6GHz. And even then WILL there be a bottleneck...?

There's not many left. I should be able to order today if you confirm that it would be worth it.

Don't forget I play at 1920x1080.

So two 6850s for £250, I did find a 480 for £200. Problem is, nV cards don't have as clear images in my experience. The 480 is a power hog, hot and noisy - I was thinking "no, no".

Stan:

All 5 and 6 series cards have direct compute wich means it takes the workload off of the cpu, Im way more familiar with Nvidia cards but they both support it and it lessons cpu bottle neck so no, you shouldnt have a problem at all, but dont think the gpu jump your making is gonna give you alot of frames more in games, you'll see it in better AA and 1920x1080 resolutions. It will be an improvement. but not staggering amounts.

Me: Hmmh I know what Direct Compute is, but why is that? I'm just trying to work out what the best option is.

1 6850 is around 2/3 of a 5870 or 5770CF. And the 6K series scales far better - near perfect.

Hom much improvement? 50% is EASILY fine

25% is minimum of what I'm looking for. But I'd really want at least 30-35%

Stan:

all I can say is no bottleneck and if I were to guess, maybe 25% increase if your lucky.

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[rwiuviberwVFIUBER]

You didn't even state what you need help with. You posted a conversation and said "Yeah, help me please"

 

[d3fu5i0n]

You didn't even state what you need help with. You posted a conversation and said "Yeah, help me please"

The introduction of the conversation I had explains it...

I've currently got two 5770s in CF (P45, 8x, 8x), and I have the chance for a small amount of money to get two 6850s. But should I go for them, or will I be severely bottlenecked, or bottlenecked at all?

CPU Q6700 @ 3.6GHz

Would you now mind answering it please?

 

[wotevajjjj]

u will get bottlenecked, but i think your post needs some work, people here can't go and read page and page just to figure out what the problem is.

just a 5 line post is sufficient mostly

 

[S_I_N]

Stan said it best

Stan:

All 5 and 6 series cards have direct compute wich means it takes the workload off of the cpu, Im way more familiar with Nvidia cards but they both support it and it lessons cpu bottle neck so no, you shouldnt have a problem at all, but dont think the gpu jump your making is gonna give you alot of frames more in games, you'll see it in better AA and 1920x1080 resolutions. It will be an improvement. but not staggering amounts.

now if you upgraded the rest of the rig to match then you'd see more of an improvement over just changing gpu's

So in a nutshell yes you'd be bottlenecked by the cpu but you'd have the cards for future upgrading of the rig.

 

[d3fu5i0n]

u will get bottlenecked, but i think your post needs some work, people here can't go and read page and page just to figure out what the problem is.

just a 5 line post is sufficient mostly

Yeah sorry, I know I rushed a bit.

So what would be the best option to upgrade to...? Or am I already at the limit?

 

[d3fu5i0n]

Stan said it best

Stan:

All 5 and 6 series cards have direct compute wich means it takes the workload off of the cpu, Im way more familiar with Nvidia cards but they both support it and it lessons cpu bottle neck so no, you shouldnt have a problem at all, but dont think the gpu jump your making is gonna give you alot of frames more in games, you'll see it in better AA and 1920x1080 resolutions. It will be an improvement. but not staggering amounts.

now if you upgraded the rest of the rig to match then you'd see more of an improvement over just changing gpu's

So in a nutshell yes you'd be bottlenecked by the cpu but you'd have the cards for future upgrading of the rig.

Hmmh, yeah. I trust Stanbony's judgement. But I've had Arvutihull say different things too.

Though at the end he did say "no bottleneck". I'm thinking, "really"? Arvutihull was the one who recommended 3.6GHz for my 5770 CF setup.

I don't really have the money to change the CPU, MOBO and DIMMs.

In the first place, I wish I hadn't got that Q6700 for my P4M900 based Foxconn board. If I'd waited it out a little longer (if I'd had more comp. knowledge then [I'd only used computers for 1yr then]) I could be on P55 now.

But aside from all that. If there is AN upgrade to be made here GPU wise, what should it be? Frankly, I think after that, it calls for a new rig. Although I'm likely to believe you'll probably say "don't waste large amounts of money on a last small upgrade, but instead save up for a new rig".

 

[Grizzly]

Of the three the 6870 is the one you want to go for.

Or you could leave it for now and upgrade when you upgrade the rest of you're rig.

Considering your card is only one generation behind I'd go with option 2 if I were you.

 

[d3fu5i0n]

Of the three the 6870 is the one you want to go for.

Or you could leave it for now and upgrade when you upgrade the rest of you're rig.

Considering your card is only one generation behind I'd go with option 2 if I were you.

Option 2 being the 6870.

Hmm. I guess.

I think it's a feel of wanting to use the "usage" of a CrossFire based motherboard, especially considering it's not that old.

I got my P5Q Premium at the same time as my first 5770, I got another 5770 a year later (2010 Dec)

But aside from tessellation, a 6870 is about the same performance as I'm getting now with two 5770s. So it'd be pointless wouldn't it.

Stanbony did say "no bottleneck" at the end and said perhaps a 25% performance increase. That's fair-ish on performance. But it should be around a 70-75% increase as I said, right?

What to do... what to do...

 

[Grizzly]

Option 2 being the 6870.

Hmm. I guess.

I think it's a feel of wanting to use the "usage" of a CrossFire based motherboard, especially considering it's not that old.

I got my P5Q Premium at the same time as my first 5770, I got another 5770 a year later (2010 Dec)

But aside from tessellation, a 6870 is about the same performance as I'm getting now with two 5770s. So it'd be pointless wouldn't it.

Stanbony did say "no bottleneck" at the end and said perhaps a 25% performance increase. That's fair-ish on performance. But it should be around a 70-75% increase as I said, right?

What to do... what to do...

No option 2 is the second option I gave you, keeping the one generation old card, and waiting until you need to upgrade your whole rig.

 

[d3fu5i0n]

No option 2 is the second option I gave you, keeping the one generation old card, and waiting until you need to upgrade your whole rig.

Oh right. Yeah, my bad

Hmmh, so I'm basically at the end of my upgrade path, is what you're saying... right? Well I am getting a paid summer job/work experience soon. So perhaps I could afford after then. With that money plus the little I already have, I may have enough to build a new rig xD hehe.

It's just a bit sad y'know, when you've only recently completed building it, and especially when you've got one of the top P45 Motherboards (P5Q Premium. I even rate it to be more practical than the Maximus II Formula).

 

[Grizzly]

You can upgrade but at minimal performance increase, so minimal it's not worth doing until the next gen cards come out or maybe even the generation after that.

In your case if you're looking into building a new rig soon definitely wait until you build your new rig to buy a card as no doubt something better will be out by then.

 

[marsey99]

Get 1 good card now and save till 2011 comes out and then add another gpu then if you need to.

A 560 or 6850 is going to match your current setup if not beat it.

 

[d3fu5i0n]

You can upgrade but at minimal performance increase, so minimal it's not worth doing until the next gen cards come out or maybe even the generation after that.

In your case if you're looking into building a new rig soon definitely wait until you build your new rig to buy a card as no doubt something better will be out by then.

Well, there's something always new and better in the works... no matter what.

I guess the 6870 is a slight option. The same DX10 (and older) performance. Well a 5870 is slightly faster than a 6870 in DX10 and older based games and benchmarks (I hardly ever bench. Only to find bottlenecks sometimes). But I reckon that the performance I lose on the scaling = a 6870. So I'm into BF2 and can't wait for BF3, I LOOOVE DiRT2 and can't wait for DiRT3. Hmmh, I like the D3D11 based games a lot. So I could jump for a single 6870 to help with games that use a lot of tessellation.

I wasn't really planning to upgrade that much you see. I only wanted a boost in tessellation really. But thought the easiest way is to add more generic 'raw' power, rather than a newer GPU with a better Tessellation engine.

Perhaps a single 6870 though. I can grab one for around £155. Well, I'd be paid by my dad for the other rig at his partner's house (which would eventually become his computer as his old Celeron D comp. is dying

). So basically my dad would put around £100 towards it. So, I've only got to cough up around £55.

What do you think?

And... it would get rid of CF issues and micro-stutter (which exists in some games)

 

[Grizzly]

Well, there's something always new and better in the works... no matter what.

I guess the 6870 is a slight option. The same DX10 (and older) performance. Well a 5870 is slightly faster than a 6870 in DX10 and older based games and benchmarks (I hardly ever bench. Only to find bottlenecks sometimes). But I reckon that the performance I lose on the scaling = a 6870. So I'm into BF2 and can't wait for BF3, I LOOOVE DiRT2 and can't wait for DiRT3. Hmmh, I like the D3D11 based games a lot. So I could jump for a single 6870 to help with games that use a lot of tessellation.

I wasn't really planning to upgrade that much you see. I only wanted a boost in tessellation really. But thought the easiest way is to add more generic 'raw' power, rather than a newer GPU with a better Tessellation engine.

Perhaps a single 6870 though. I can grab one for around £155. Well, I'd be paid by my dad for the other rig at his partner's house (which would eventually become his computer as his old Celeron D comp. is dying

). So basically my dad would put around £100 towards it. So, I've only got to cough up around £55.

What do you think?

And... it would get rid of CF issues and micro-stutter (which exists in some games)

I agree there's always something new round the corner, I only said that because you mentioned building a new rig later this year.

Anyways now you put it into perspective, £55 for a 6850? Hell yes go for it and get a second if and when you do build a new rig after summer.

 

[d3fu5i0n]

I agree there's always something new round the corner, I only said that because you mentioned building a new rig later this year.

Anyways now you put it into perspective, £55 for a 6850? Hell yes go for it and get a second if and when you do build a new rig after summer.

No, £55 for a 6870.

Would that be equal to 2x 5770? (well, with the scaling drop from a 5870. I got around a 38-42% increase(per card; therefore final = 176-184%)in framerate from a single card to the dual 5770s).

So, yeah. I think I'll do so...

And I didn't really say I "was" going to build a new rig. Only if it was necessary. But now that I realise I can gain performance for tessellation/D3D11 titles, that's fine.

The card for £155 (me paying £55) is an XFX 'blower-style-fan' model. I've heard issues with XFX's capacitors. Would it be better to spend £10 more for a Sapphire or PowerColor model? Bare in mind, I live in the UK, so XFX's and other manufacturer's policies will differ from region to region.

Thanks for all your help and advice (and everyone else's for that matter!)

EDIT: The XFX model is from XFX themselves, and I've come to realise that you HAVE to pay for postage and it is very pricey. But a Sapphire model (I've always used SapphireTechnologies) still goes for £155 w/ postage [slowest delivery].

I've also looked up and found that the 6870 has a MUCH better minimum than my 5770 CF setup in Crysis Warhead at 1920x1080. 6870 - 25 min. My 5770 CF probably gets down to even 16 or 17 FPS. Wow, I think I'll go for it... Just need someone to say "hey, hosay... go for it dude!" (My mind always needs outside encouragement lol).

 

[S_I_N]

I'd still go for it as you can then later when $$ is better you can unleash them on a updated rig

 

[d3fu5i0n]

I'd still go for it as you can then later when $$ is better you can unleash them on a updated rig

And... no CrossFire issues. D3D11 and tessellation improvements. Perhaps a clearer image [sometimes happens]. and also have the ability to upgrade later with better scaling than 5K series. And better to cool down. AND NO Micro-Stuttering.

So you're saying 6870... I don't know why my mind is fighting it. Probably because there isn't any generic performance improvement. Well with my fav. games luckily being D3D11 at least I'd get an improvement there.

But with my CF scaling drop from the 5870s usual performance, WILL I get the same performance or better in older D3D10 games such as Crysis and Crysis Warhead? That's the last thing I want to confirm. If it's a yes, I will go for it. If not, I don't think I will...

 

[S_I_N]

I'd say MEASURABLE improvement you prolly wont see but Visually I think you would as the eye is a better judge to visuals over a benchmark.

 

[d3fu5i0n]

I'd say MEASURABLE improvement you prolly wont see but Visually I think you would as the eye is a better judge to visuals over a benchmark.

I've looked at some more reliable benches and it's near the same as the 5870. Probably a few frames more.

But the single GPU advantages and driver improvements will help A LOT. I remember when 10.8 came out and DiRT 2 framerates nearly doubled for my single 5770. So perhaps by 1 years time (after the card's release) it should excel past the 5870 speeds in anything...

I've decided to go for it. Will purchase later today (nearly 3AM as of when this was written) - like the afternoon.

Yeah, thanks for all the advice/help though. I'm very grateful.

I don't really bench though. Just a gamer. But as BF3 is going to really take to the use of most of D3D11, the tessellation advancements will rip straight through it.