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  #731  
Old 24-07-19, 07:27 AM
Warchild Warchild is offline
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Originally Posted by NeverBackDown View Post
Well, not a bad thing I suppose. Just use a different supplier. Unless Hauwei is the only advanced 5G company out there, then wait. I don't see the reason we need 5G so bad now anyway. It's not like it will extend the internet to more people, it'll only go to the wealthy areas first.
Nah, Trump relaxing his stance on Huawei was a great thing. Especially for HW phone users. However, replacing a supplier is far from easy sadly.

5G is paving the way for sensors, M2M and basically digitising everything in your home, via nbIoT (narrowband internet of things). E.g. having your light bulbs connected with an ipv6 address and fully in control whereever you are, as data consumption so small that it becomes efficient.

5G is more for expanding devices communicating than downloading your favourite apps and games at higher speeds.

Signalling and routing is different even if its a customised solution tailored to your network. Switches and codes are mapped differently. Rejections, encryptions and protocols maybe standardised but all suppliers seem to do them in their own way.
Basically you design your GGSN (system that grants you data use) to act, communicate and respond with a set value of codes and commands with a given vendor, so changing vendor means alot of re mapping of live traffic.

Its an absolute nightmare. We changed our core system recently and it was basically the equivalent of changing an engine on a plane while it was still in flight.

And then you need to consider the nbIoT core structure talking with all your other systems.

To be fair << cant believe I use this term.. Huawei is one of the best out there for 5G at the moment. Only close second place, is Ericsson, but they are so damn expensive. They charge for mandatory features of 5G ontop of what is considered basic funtions.

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  #732  
Old 24-07-19, 09:20 AM
tgrech tgrech is offline
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Originally Posted by Greenback View Post
I don't think it will matter I foresee another GE before October 31st either remain Tories defecting to lib-dems or voting against their own party in a vote of no confidence parliament aren't going to let us leave the EU it's their retirement home
I think you're missing the fact the Tories only have a majority of 2 seats now their chief whip has been removed on sexual assault charges. Two tory rebels and its game over. Rory Stewart has said he will, and apparently he has at least one friend by his count. Also if the DUP feel they can't support Boris anymore due to risks to peace in Ireland(since none of his Brexit plans actually deal with the backstop), game over. Boris might even need to call the GE himself if he finds he needs a functional majority.

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Originally Posted by NeverBackDown View Post
Well, not a bad thing I suppose. Just use a different supplier. Unless Hauwei is the only advanced 5G company out there, then wait. I don't see the reason we need 5G so bad now anyway. It's not like it will extend the internet to more people, it'll only go to the wealthy areas first.
Inner city areas are predominantly populated by working class people in almost all westernised nations now(Because of industrial revolutions, even in China or whatever this is the case now, working people follow the work). It's actually quite expensive to live rurally nowadays compared to living in inner cities. For most of Europe and from the statistics I've seen, America, the bulk of people below or near the poverty line live in built up areas, while the suburban and rural ourskirts are where the wealthy live. 5G is a huge boon for business though, public transport and other communal industries could benefit greatly. Though, maybe if we had to pay the prices the Americans want us to then it would have to stick to really small wealthy places first like just CBDs, luckily the rollout is quite large across working class cities here. In more or less all westernised societies this wealthy central part of the city is usually only a km or so wide, and even then often laced with a high density of abject poverty nowadays(Homelessness and so on). (Though England in particular has an insane population density, essentially one big city by some countries standards)

In fact, the 2019 5G rollout so far doesn't have any direct coverage for the wealthiest parts of the UK (Rural South East), and covers the majority of the UK's working class population in the first step(This is just one of three providers coverage plans, it'll hit around 40 major cities and towns this year, near total population coverage for 2020 as the old 700Mhz band gets cleared)
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  #733  
Old 24-07-19, 10:45 AM
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Greenback Greenback is offline
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Originally Posted by tgrech View Post
I think you're missing the fact the Tories only have a majority of 2 seats now their chief whip has been removed on sexual assault charges. Two tory rebels and its game over. Rory Stewart has said he will, and apparently he has at least one friend by his count. Also if the DUP feel they can't support Boris anymore due to risks to peace in Ireland(since none of his Brexit plans actually deal with the backstop), game over. Boris might even need to call the GE himself if he finds he needs a functional majority.

I wasn't missing the low majority and that's the point a few defections and a GE is needed, and if they do Tories would have to have a clean out of remainer mp's and replace them with brexit mp's before the campaign started or we'll be back to what it is now, the good part is corbyn would have to get off the fence and make a choice on where labour stands either remain or leave and have another clean out of mp's to which ever side they decide on.
As it stands at the moment I don't think any party could get a majority big enough to do any thing
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  #734  
Old 24-07-19, 11:10 AM
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Well MPs are decided by their local constituencies so no real clear out can happen. Switching to all pro-Brexit MPs would absolutely kill a parties chances of success in most urban areas. Similarly of course switching to all remain MPs would kill a parties chance of success in the wealthy rural Brexit heartlands. Essentially the balance is hardwired into our democracy, a 52/48 split for remain/leave means you can't get the support of the British people if you go hard one way. Labour's Brexit policy was decided at party conference years ago and hasn't changed since, if there's a Brexit deal that delivers on the promises made before the referendum labour will accept it, if there's not they won't. Labour has had a firm Brexit plan and deal the whole time, but of course while not in power that's been dormant. But the way our democracy works means that compromise is fundamental, you can't go hard one way, attempting to do so means you get nothing at all. The fact is, there aren't enough pro-Brexit areas in the UK to have a majority that could pass a hard Brexit deal, and MPs are selected by their constituents on who represents them.

Also no sensible MP can vote for a so-called no-deal(Not in any way a hard Brexit, barely a Brexit at all, it's a buzzword for politicians to use as a get out of jail card and that's it) while still acting in the best interests of their constituents, it not only doesn't deliver on what people wanted out of Brexit but actually goes in the opposite direction, because there is literally no such thing. No deal means we don't have a deal on the day we leave, we still have to negotiate a deal with the EU at some point because we still need to trade with them, the only difference is that in the mean time the terms with which we trade on will be massively stacked against us, and when we do eventually negotiate the deal after Brexit, as we have to legally, it will be an even worse deal than May's as the EU holds all the cards and we will have to rush it through. "No deal" is essentially us shouting to Europe "Nothing stopping you from shafting us now".
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  #735  
Old 24-07-19, 02:52 PM
NeverBackDown NeverBackDown is online now
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Originally Posted by Warchild View Post
Nah, Trump relaxing his stance on Huawei was a great thing. Especially for HW phone users. However, replacing a supplier is far from easy sadly.

5G is paving the way for sensors, M2M and basically digitising everything in your home, via nbIoT (narrowband internet of things). E.g. having your light bulbs connected with an ipv6 address and fully in control whereever you are, as data consumption so small that it becomes efficient.

5G is more for expanding devices communicating than downloading your favourite apps and games at higher speeds.

Signalling and routing is different even if its a customised solution tailored to your network. Switches and codes are mapped differently. Rejections, encryptions and protocols maybe standardised but all suppliers seem to do them in their own way.
Basically you design your GGSN (system that grants you data use) to act, communicate and respond with a set value of codes and commands with a given vendor, so changing vendor means alot of re mapping of live traffic.

Its an absolute nightmare. We changed our core system recently and it was basically the equivalent of changing an engine on a plane while it was still in flight.

And then you need to consider the nbIoT core structure talking with all your other systems.

To be fair << cant believe I use this term.. Huawei is one of the best out there for 5G at the moment. Only close second place, is Ericsson, but they are so damn expensive. They charge for mandatory features of 5G ontop of what is considered basic funtions.
Thank you for clearing this up. I still reserve my opinion on it not really being so critical to 99% of the world to expand it to random things like light bulbs which we can do over WiFi already. I just don't see why it's a big deal. If the US government thinks it's not safe fine whatever. They can wait and companies won't buy 5G gear inside the US until a competitor comes out to be as good.

To me I just don't see why the US government should give in to something that lets you control light bulbs or refrigerators or other IoT devices if they feel like they aren't safe for national security. Doesn't seem like a good trade honestly. I have nothing against Hauwei I'm not biased or trying to blame them for anything I am just looking at it from an outside perspective. Granted I don't fully understand 5G but still.
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  #736  
Old 25-07-19, 07:13 AM
Warchild Warchild is offline
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Originally Posted by NeverBackDown View Post
Thank you for clearing this up. I still reserve my opinion on it not really being so critical to 99% of the world to expand it to random things like light bulbs which we can do over WiFi already. I just don't see why it's a big deal. If the US government thinks it's not safe fine whatever. They can wait and companies won't buy 5G gear inside the US until a competitor comes out to be as good.

To me I just don't see why the US government should give in to something that lets you control light bulbs or refrigerators or other IoT devices if they feel like they aren't safe for national security. Doesn't seem like a good trade honestly. I have nothing against Hauwei I'm not biased or trying to blame them for anything I am just looking at it from an outside perspective. Granted I don't fully understand 5G but still.
Definately right. 5G is not needed really, i put it in those "not needed but good to have".
Thing is for our Mobile industry at the moment is that it has become stagnant on technology so we need innervation to spark the interest and begin selling new products. When 3G and 4G came, these were just VAS stuff (value added service) and not charged. But they want to market the hell out of 5G.

But the devices are just a small taste of devices and systems to come which could change the way we watch movies, shop, pay for services etc.
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  #737  
Old 25-07-19, 09:47 AM
tgrech tgrech is offline
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I have to disagree, many 5G reliant technologies including C-V2X could save hundreds of thousands of lives a year once it proliferates, car crashes are the leading cause of death in most Western countries, most vehicles sold today could be retrofitted with this tech straight away and legislators seem eager to enforce it. Also many technologies that will have big implications for emergency services, disaster response and so on. Meanwhile it's being used to connect places that are too unstable, or dynamic, to have wired infrastructure, for many of the worlds most densely populated cities(In many developing central Asian nations for instance) 5G is the only way the citizens within them will get their first personal internet connection, and it'll bring new waves of smart, safer, more reliable city infrastructure to much of the world where they don't have the resources for regular maintenance or the habitat is inherently challenging. There's so many new innovations that simply couldn't exist without 5G, and we've only just scratched the surface, it really is incomparable to any step forward previously besides the dawn of the internet itself.
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  #738  
Old 25-07-19, 12:50 PM
Warchild Warchild is offline
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Originally Posted by tgrech View Post
I have to disagree, many 5G reliant technologies including C-V2X could save hundreds of thousands of lives a year once it proliferates, car crashes are the leading cause of death in most Western countries, most vehicles sold today could be retrofitted with this tech straight away and legislators seem eager to enforce it. Also many technologies that will have big implications for emergency services, disaster response and so on. Meanwhile it's being used to connect places that are too unstable, or dynamic, to have wired infrastructure, for many of the worlds most densely populated cities(In many developing central Asian nations for instance) 5G is the only way the citizens within them will get their first personal internet connection, and it'll bring new waves of smart, safer, more reliable city infrastructure to much of the world where they don't have the resources for regular maintenance or the habitat is inherently challenging. There's so many new innovations that simply couldn't exist without 5G, and we've only just scratched the surface, it really is incomparable to any step forward previously besides the dawn of the internet itself.
Gonna stop you right there. heart disease and cancer is the leading cause of death

And we already have much of what you list via 4G using DCP technology courtesy of vendors like Ericsson. This is why I say its a "good to have" technology. You are however massively overhyping 5G.

There is a reason the protocols for 5G came about quite a few years ago, but only now we are seeing rollouts. It's demand is not high and its cost is great. There will be absolutely NO difference whatsoever in the 5G rollout procedures in comparison to 4G. It will still take a long time to agressively get it everywhere nationwide. Much like areas still waiting on 4G coverage. And what makes this more difficult is that 5G frequencies are shorter range. This means more nodes and stations. Furthermore, 3G and 4G penetrate walls better than 5G due to said frequency limitations.

This is why I said, its more about devices communicating among one another than you being able to browse at a better speed in your local silo.

Verizon are currently working technology to bring 5G to the masses, but it involves a plethora of nodes due to poor range and penetration of 5G.

Sprint and AT&T have opted for lower band spectrum frequences to improve this, but then speeds are lower. So it doesnt really matter which solution is used. It is going to take years before we see coverage like todays services. And even then, your operators will focus on the more densely populated areas due to profits.

We are currently working on a mid ground between the two but again only focussed on the more populated areas.
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  #739  
Old 25-07-19, 01:07 PM
tgrech tgrech is offline
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Gonna stop you right there. heart disease and cancer is the leading cause of death
Leading cause of death amongst 15-29 year olds sorry. It's kind of expected that health becomes dominant past a certain age I think. Still it's a major issues that kills millions and has a significant impact on a nations GDP.

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And we already have much of what you list via 4G using DCP technology courtesy of vendors like Ericsson. This is why I say its a "good to have" technology. You are however massively overhyping 5G.
The latency and capacity issues of 4G not only makes much of this technology nonviable but introduces significant safety risks. You can do small scale trials with this tech on 4G but in a widescale rollout the networks would grind to a halt.

Quote:
There is a reason the protocols for 5G came about quite a few years ago, but only now we are seeing rollouts. It's demand is not high and its cost is great. There will be absolutely NO difference whatsoever in the 5G rollout procedures in comparison to 4G. It will still take a long time to agressively get it everywhere nationwide. Much like areas still waiting on 4G coverage. And what makes this more difficult is that 5G frequencies are shorter range. This means more nodes and stations. Furthermore, 3G and 4G penetrate walls better than 5G due to said frequency limitations.
You mean, its lacking demand in nations that have the spending capacity to push it. Many nation like my home country of Malta or for instance my friends in Bangladesh, where the vast majority of the population is concentrated within a handful of KM^2, they're essentially skipping wide scale 4G rollouts entirely, 4G had little benefits for nations like this as it was too slow for day to day broadband and lacked the capacity for high density areas, while 5G is set to bring significant cost reductions over the current system of having to do bespoke hard wired fibre connections to new households in these rapidly urban-expanding nations. Have you ever seen what it's like in Dhaka? It looks like an explosion in an electric cable factory, these rapidly expanding cities at the forefront of the next generation of newly industrialised nations simply cannot rely on having wired connections to every single household, but they could certainly fit masts on every street corner, there are over 5000 people for every 0.5Km^2(And I'm sure it's not hard to guess what maintaining infrastructure in places like this is usually like).

Quote:
This is why I said, its more about devices communicating among one another than you being able to browse at a better speed in your local silo.

Verizon are currently working technology to bring 5G to the masses, but it involves a plethora of nodes due to poor range and penetration of 5G.

Sprint and AT&T have opted for lower band spectrum frequences to improve this, but then speeds are lower. So it doesnt really matter which solution is used. It is going to take years before we see coverage like todays services. And even then, your operators will focus on the more densely populated areas due to profits.

We are currently working on a mid ground between the two but again only focussed on the more populated areas.
Yeah I agree,, particularly on the inter-device communication aspect, but the technologies that can actually use realtime, hive-like inter device communications on a large scale are still in their infancy, with a world of yet unseen potential lurking around the corner, while much of the worlds populations are concentrated in tiny areas and always have been, usually either coasts or rivers, even in America almost half of their population live on the coast(Admittedly that's a very big coastline, but it's an even bigger mainland). We've seen this trend accelerate in every nation that ever goes through an industrial revolution, and it's only now in wealthy post-industrial societies where it's began to reverse with de-urbanisation for those who can afford it, with the majority(>55%) of the worlds population now living in high density urbanised areas(And it's not just still rising, but accelerating). Almost all countries, including here in the UK, have a double digit percentage of their population in their capital city, with the vast majority of the rest in a handful of other large cities. Having to cover large rural areas is generally an exception, not a rule, and these areas largely are less dependant on the kinds of infrastructure that would benefit most here anyway.

Look, I get it, for us in developed nations that have invested heavily in fibre and have huge desirable rural areas then it's hardly going to set the world on fire. But this is the minority situation of the lucky few. I'm not saying America should go spending a bomb on it, or take "risks" with Chinese tech, but I think here in the UK it'd be a huge boon for our research and development industries to be able to have wide scale hands on access as soon as possible to this key enabler of progressive future tech. In many ways we're leading the world with the internal side of electric car development, Williams are at the forefront of energy storage tech while similarly companies like McClaren make the electronic logic units for a huge range of customers, and there's no doubt inter-vehicle communication will be a far more important step to improving road safety prior to automation.
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  #740  
Old 25-07-19, 04:17 PM
NeverBackDown NeverBackDown is online now
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Originally Posted by Warchild View Post
Definately right. 5G is not needed really, i put it in those "not needed but good to have".
Thing is for our Mobile industry at the moment is that it has become stagnant on technology so we need innervation to spark the interest and begin selling new products. When 3G and 4G came, these were just VAS stuff (value added service) and not charged. But they want to market the hell out of 5G.

But the devices are just a small taste of devices and systems to come which could change the way we watch movies, shop, pay for services etc.
I believe you as it's your expertise and your daily job. I just would rather more people have access to the internet than just improving wealthy areas. But again I don't know if 5G could do that.
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