Where do we go from here?

OK, so a couple of weeks ago, I decided I would like a decent desktop PC after years of trying to get by with a laptop (overheating like crazy, inability to play games etc.). So, since I'd never done my own build but was eager to give it a go, I decided, quite incorrectly, it'd be easier to get a really basic pre-built machine and modify it to get it to a decent standard. The problem is, after doing actual research into what's available (this is my first time even thought about buying components since 2005), I know how much better my system could be after a little bit of time and investment. I've gotten it to a fairly serviceable standard right now but I would like some advice/input on improvements I'm thinking about making.

Starting system;

CiT Black Recon case
ACE 500W PSU (no PCIe connector, if you can believe it!)
ASUS M5A78L-MLX V2 motherboard
AMD Bulldozer FX4100 CPU
8GB of sir's most generic RAM
Optical Drive (probably a no-brand combo drive of some sort)

Current System;

CiT Black Recon case
Evo Labs 650W PSU (I know, I know but it's nowhere near pushed ATM and it was £25)
ASUS M5A78L-MLX V2 motherboard
AMD Bulldozer FX4100 CPU
8GB of sir's most generic RAM
Optical Drive (probably a no-brand combo drive of some sort)
Powercolor Radeon HD 7850
Some crappy little internal card reader

Peripherals;
Technika multimedia keyboard
Logitech standard mouse
Hanspree 19" monitor

Well, first thing I was thinking about upgrading was the RAM. Currently considering;

Corsair Dominator 1600 (£40) or 1866 (£69) 2x4GB
AMD Performance 1600 2x4GB (£44)

Now, I've read that the 4100 CPU plays nicer with RAM running at 1600Mhz and actually runs faster with it but that seems like a decent deal on the 1866 Dominator. Any feedback/other ideas/ better prices very welcome.

Next... apparently this CPU and GPU both take to overclocking quite well but I know I will need to do quite a bit of other stuff to make this safe. So...

Firstly, I'm really not sure about OCing anything in this case; the airflow doesn't seem particularly good, there's no cable management facilities and it's small. Here's how it looks;



I know some of that is probably my fault but here's the clearance off the bottom of the case for the GPU (this isn't my fault);



So, OK. new case. Considering;

NZXT Crafted Series HADES (£60)
In Win Maelstrom (£74- slightly concerned about no USB3 ports)
Corsair Carbide 300R (£62)

Again; opinions, alternatives, better prices all welcome.

The PSU... well, it works but I don't think I could trust it if I'm overclocking anything, so that'll have to be replaced. I have NO idea what I want here. According to an online calculator, the system is using just under 400W at stock. I don't know how much headroom I need, and I may add in more chassis fans and things, too. Modular PSUs would be nice but yeah, I need recommendations here because I'm clueless.

Right, can't OC anything properly with the stock coolers. I'm pretty much going on Amazon reviews here, don't have much of a clue about what's good or what I need (other than it needs to fit an AM3+ socket, which apparently is the same as AM3?). Anyway, the ones that caught my eye were;

For the CPU;
COOLER MASTER GeminII SF524 CPU Cooler (£55)
NZXT Havik 140 Dual 140mm CPU Cooler (£56)
Noctua NH-D14 (£60)

For the GPU;
Cooling Accelero TwinTurbo Pro II Graphics Card Cooler (£35)

Pretty much had my mind made up on that one based off reviews but other opinions etc. very much welcome. I'm not really interested in water-cooling (unless there's a really good reason for it I'm unaware of) and noise isn't an issue; I have headphones on most of the time, anyway.

As for peripherals, I've been looking at;

CM Storm Xornet gaming mouse (£15-£20)
Gigabyte M6900 Optical Gaming Mouse (£12-£16)
Cyborg RAT 3 (£35)

MS Sidewinder X4 Keyboard (£30)
Saitek Cyborg V.5 USB Gaming Keyboard (£35)

What do you guys think?

Finally, very important question that maybe only I can answer BUT... is it worth just going all out on this, if I'm getting a new case and OCing it anyway, is it worth getting a new motherboard and top-of-the-line CPU and another HD 7850 for crossfire, or do you think the proposed system here will be fine for some decent gaming and other basic tasks?

I think that's everything. Thanks very much for taking the time to read it.

defo change the power supply, especially if you want to overclock anything. I had a 700w £15 psu and it blew up after a few minutes of running prime95 lol. And i think that was when i was just running my hd6670, so i doubt the psu was even being pushed past 150w when it went bang.

Just because they say a certain wattage means nothing when it comes to these silly cheap power supplies.

As for whether to upgrade cpu and motherboard, well that depends, does it play games as well as you need it to, and run all the other programs you need as well as you want it to?

If not then upgrade.

As for the cpu cooler, i have an fx6100 oc'ed to 4.5ghz and i use the noctua NH-D14 and its an amazing air cooler, if your not interested in watercooling and you said you werent then you wont do any better than getting that.

As for the mouse and keyboard the cyborg ones i really like the looks of but i also like corsair's series of gaming peripherals, take a look at them they are nice.

I dont know about gpu coolers, they have always looked really ugly in my opinion, and whether they will cool any better than the stock cooling i just dont know.

and finally for your ram, if you are going to upgrade i would save some money and just go with the Dominator 1600 if they are £40 as you say

never skimp on psu for what your running I'd suggest the Corsair 750watt line either the HX for semi modular or the AX for fully modular. The TX isnt bad either just non modular (if thats important to you) Also look at the GS line if modular isnt important.

ram well iof the 1866 is cheaper get it down clock it to 1600 and tighten the timings. Most AMD procs dont take advantage of faster ram.

cooler the D14 is a hands down winner but I have had great luck with even a CM 212+ on my old 1090T (just not high ocable)

cases well I've owned alot of cases thru my years and I will say this make sure you have plenty of room behind the mobo to hide wires as trying to get a side panel on with the cables back there on limited space is a chore and can warp the panel.

is the stock cooler on your GPU loud?? if not keep it and use afterburner to set up a nice fan profile to keep it cool and quiet.

Thanks for the replies so far, guys; keep 'em coming!

Interesting, if a little frightening stuff about the cheap power supply! Although, I've seen my Evo one on Amazon for £50 and the reviews seemed quite positive (still wouldn't trust it on overclocking, though; I've no means to safely test it and I don't want it frying any of my stuff). I can pick up a Corsair GS700 for £70 and by the looks of things, the competition isn't going to work out any cheaper, anyway so looks good to me.

The RAM; the 1866 is actually £30 more than the 1600, so it's probably not worth underclocking. Timing wise, the AMD RAM is

8-9-8-24 @ 1.65V
9-9-9-28 @ 1.5V

While the Corsair is listed as

9-9-9-24 @ 1.65V

so it seems like the AMD RAM is actually slightly faster and only £4 more expensive? It's made by Patriot, actually so it's not some cheap stuff with an AMD logo on it.

NH-D14 all round, on the cooling front, then? It seemed pretty much the industry standard, anyway.

As for a GPU cooler, from the research I've done, the HD 7850 does take well to OCing but the single-fan models (as mine is) suffer from high temperatures and stressing the fan (yes, very loud!) when OCed. One of the Amazon reviews was a guy claiming to have the my exact card up from 860Mhz to 1200Mhz at 45c with the fans pretty much silent, so I figured it was worth a go. I think the highest stable OC claim I've seen is 1400Mhz.

Cases; all of the cases there have decent cable management systems.

The Hades has proper rubber grommets and cable-tie loops, a fan controller, temperature sensors (apparently, very accurate) and lots of space behind the motherboard tray. It also has space for a 200mm fan on the other side and at the front, 2x140mm fans on top and an exhaust fan on the back, plus dust filters (including one for the PSU). I think I'm probably going to go for this one...

The Maelstrom, though, is a good bit bigger and has a 220mm fan on the side, which is apparently very quiet and effective. There's no grommets or tie-loops, just space to pass cables under the motherboard tray. I dunno, though; the NZXT is big enough for my needs, really so I'd be paying more and sacrificing USB 3.0 for 20mm of fan, really.

The Corasir 300R has holes without grommets for cable management, but less dust covers than the NZXT has (and maybe slightly less room behind the tray). Room for 2x140mm fans on the side. I'd kinda like the bigger fan, I think.

Corsair peripherals; definitely look nice but they are significantly more expensive than the others at the minute (mouse is at least £50, keyboard at least £80).

Glad to see your thinking about cable management in all your possible cases, to me its going to be one of the main factors in future builds, plus clearance for radiators in the roof.

OK, so things have changed a little from the original plan. In addition to upgrading this machine, I'm also going to use the leftover parts to build a second machine for music production (I have a dedicated rig for this at the minute but it's really old* and stuggles if I add a lot of VST effects etc. so I figured it was due an upgrade).

*If curious, it's an AMD Athlon (Socket 939) with I think 2.5GB RAM, ATI X1800 GPU. Yeah, could do with something better.

So, the current idea is;

Music Machine

CiT Black Recon case
Evo Labs 650W PSU
ASUS M5A78L-MLX V2 motherboard
AMD Bulldozer FX4100 CPU
8GB generic RAM / OR 8GB AMD Performance RAM
Optical Drive
Internal card reader
XFX Radeon HD 5450

SES ('some expense spared') Gaming Rig

Akasa Voodoo Venom case (w/ Bitfenix 230mm Spectre Pro and Akasa Viper fans)
AsRock 990FX Extreme3 MoBo
AMD FX-8150 CPU
8GB AMD Performance RAM (OR G.Skill 32GB 1600 RipjawsZ )
Powercolor HD 7850 (possibly x2)
Silverpower 750M PSU
WD Caviar Blue 1TB HDD
OCZ Agility3 60GB SSD
Noctua N-HD14 CPU Cooler
Cooling Accelero Twin Turbo II GPU cooler
ASUS VE228T 21.5" Monitor
MS Sidewinder X4 keyboard
Cyborg R.A.T. 3 Mouse


OK, so this means I need to buy these things;

http://www.amazon.co.uk/registry/wishlist/2DXA6WIUK00RK

So; advice. Have I done anything silly with this? Overspending hugely in one area wile underspending in another? Better or cheaper gear I could have gone for? Anything else? Feedback appreciated.

Why not go for Intel over AMD?

Also dont buy the OCZ SSD...It'll only break

It's down to expense vs performance. I'd pay about £200 more overall for an Intel build and the improvements in the performance would be minimal after overclocking (for gaming), as far as I can tell. I've also been a lot happier with the performance of any AMD processor I've had over any Intel but I haven't exactly been doing like-for-like comparisons. Also, it seems like AM3+ sockets may be around for a little while yet whereas Intel have just brought out 2011, so I'd need to buy newer (and therefore more expensive) gear in order to ensure I can upgrade in the future and keep some stuff if I want to. It's mostly down to cost; a similarly priced (and future-proofed) Intel system would be nowhere near as powerful and (I'd heard) also be harder to keep cool.

I've heard that while OCZ tend to make sub-par stuff, their SSDs are actually fine (and a friend has had one running in his mac book for a good 2-3 years now) but if you can suggest a similarly priced alternative, I'm all ears; just want faster boot times, really- anything that can hold Win 7 (or Win 8, soon enough) would be good enough for me.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Samsung-2-5...1_6?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1343841553&sr=1-6

How's that?


Thanks for the reply.

The Samsung 830 is a fantastic SSD, a great performer overall both in speed and reliability.

Kanped said:

It's down to expense vs performance. I'd pay about £200 more overall for an Intel build and the improvements in the performance would be minimal after overclocking (for gaming), as far as I can tell. I've also been a lot happier with the performance of any AMD processor I've had over any Intel but I haven't exactly been doing like-for-like comparisons. Also, it seems like AM3+ sockets may be around for a little while yet whereas Intel have just brought out 2011, so I'd need to buy newer (and therefore more expensive) gear in order to ensure I can upgrade in the future and keep some stuff if I want to. It's mostly down to cost; a similarly priced (and future-proofed) Intel system would be nowhere near as powerful and (I'd heard) also be harder to keep cool.

Click to expand...

I changed from AMD to Intel a few months back, and IMO, it's best to get out of the long dark whole that is AMD
Even if it's an i3, or if you can afford a little more go for a 3570k and an MSI G45. Should be that much more expensive - and it's completely worth it!

jamesriley94 said:

I changed from AMD to Intel a few months back, and IMO, it's best to get out of the long dark whole that is AMD
Even if it's an i3, or if you can afford a little more go for a 3570k and an MSI G45. Should be that much more expensive - and it's completely worth it!

Click to expand...

+1 You could even go for the MSI Z77A G43 which is currently only £70 on aria

The 4100 will clock to 4.1-4.2GHz on the stock cooler (the 4170 is clocked to that at stock remember). At that clock it will be a fine gaming cpu (and better than an i3). The 8150 is a complete waste of money for gaming (games won't use all those threads).

+1 for the 750w corsair. Amd over-clocks are heavy on the power.

Intel 3570 is ultimately the gamer's cpu of choice at the moment if you can free up the cash:

FX4100+mobo+NH-D14=£220

3570k+MSI z77a-g45=£260

I wouldn't recommend the g43. It is cheaper but you won't get to play with the Vcore much at all. Also going for intel means you can save £10 and get a smaller, 650w psu.

On the stock cooler the 3570k will still be happy over-clocking to ~4.1 which is significantly more powerful than the 4100 at any clock and you can always get a cooler later but that is just food for thought.

Also you might want to consider kits like these to save money:

http://www.aria.co.uk/SuperSpecials...rebones+Kit+w/+3+FREE+Games!+?productId=50872

http://www.aria.co.uk/SuperSpecials...rebones+Kit+w/+2+FREE+Games!+?productId=50862

Personally I would spend the money on the CPU rather than the SSD. Once the game has loaded an SSD isn't going to make things any better.

I'm just struggling to see any real benefit of an Intel system over the AMD gear.

So, FX 8150 (8 cores, 3.6 GHz at stock), about £140, MoBo £70 total £210
For the same MoBo with a 2011 socket, it's just over £160 (more than double the price) and the cheapest processor for that socket I could find is the Intel Core i7 3820 (3.6 GHz, 4 cores), total £307, so almost £100 more.

Now, I could get an i5 2500k (or 3450) with the same MoBo for £267 (but I mean, I might as well spend the extra £40 if I'm doing that anyway).

As far as I'm concerned, I'd be paying an extra £100 for a CPU with half as many cores (i.e. when software is optimized for multiple cores, it should out-perform the i7, I don't really understand why it wouldn't, but I'm listening if someone can explain it with facts) that runs at the same speed.
I mean, I'm all ears but anything I've heard about Intel being so much better than AMD has been anecdotal; if someone can explain to me what the actual architectural differences are,(or link me to somewhere explaining it; I do somewhat know my stuff about how these things work. I can draw a circuit diagram of an adder etc.) or even just show me side-by-side performance charts across a decent range of software, I'd be more than happy to consider spending the extra cash.

I'm thinking mostly for future-proofing, trying to make this thing last; I think that with Windows 8 and future games, they will begin make more use of more threads in the not-to-distant future. If the performance is only lacking because the software isn't make use of the threads, I think that will sort itself out in the future (again, if I'm just wrong, let me know).

On the other hand, how much more support is there going to be for 1155 if I want to upgrade in the future? Might mean buying a new motherboard as well as a new processor. I guess that's not the end of the world, though and there are some 1155 CPUs that should still be pretty great that are currently way out of my price range. I'm kinda coming around to the Intel idea but I'd like more info about WHY it's better and some hard figures.

As for the PSU, the TTL guys did a review of that Silverpower and it actually out-performed Corsair's 750W units; it could have gotten an 80+ gold rating and kept running comfortably up to almost a kilowatt. It's just ugly; only downside, but I'm not having a window on my case, so that's all good.

Even if I don't spend the money on the N-HD 14, I think I'd still pick up a Xigmatek dark knight for about £20 or something to be able to push it a little further. I mean, my 4100 is running at 3.9GHz on the stock cooler, about 52c at full load (OCCT) so in 'sunny' Northern Ireland, the ambient temps must go a long way to keeping things cool, anyway.

Programs only use max of 3 cores really, very few programs even hit 4, and most are still limited to 1. Some games such as diablo 3 only comes natively to support 1 still.

The only programs that can ever utilise the extra cores are benchmarks and video rendering programs.

So with that knowledge: http://www.cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html

Considering the 3570k is using half the cores of the 8150 and still manages to perform on par, or at least very close to the 8150, i think that shows about everything you really need in terms of how good the Intel architecture is compared to AMD. Despite the many many (unnecessary) cores of the Bulldozers, they still come no where near the core / core performance of the Intels, which is what really matters in gaming, and for that matter pretty much every other program that you're likely to be using

Right, gotcha. Hmm... well, the Intel i5-3570 is around the same price as the fx-8150, I'm sure I could stretch to that. The problem I'm having, really is getting a decent (and cheap) motherboard. if I rule out ever using Crossfire, it'd be easier but I don't want to rule it out. A lot of the motherboards I'm seeing have 1x PCIe 3.0 slot x16 and another at x4, which sort of defeats the whole point, doesn't it?

However, the MSI board that Master&Puppet recommended does have 2 x16 slots and look what I found;

http://www.novatech.co.uk/products/...=google&utm_medium=base&utm_campaign=products

So.. it's actually going to cost me a grand total of £8 more to run with this setup. I think the weight of opinion, advice and figures has swayed me. This rig sounds appealing. I'll probably add in things like case fans and CPU cooling, more RAM after the initial build, anyway; I get paid fairly irregularly so I can't really plan a total budget.

So, we're now at;


Akasa Voodoo Venom case (w/ Bitfenix 230mm Spectre Pro and Akasa Viper fans)
MSI z77a-g45 Motherboard
Intel i5 3570k CPU
Mushkin A-Data D3 1600-999 Xtreme 8GB kit and 8GB generic (just took a notion for this, mostly because it would look cool in the case... better ideas welcome)
Powercolor HD 7850 (possibly x2)
Silverpower 750M PSU
WD Caviar Blue 1TB HDD
Samsung 830 SSD
Noctua N-HD14 CPU Cooler
Cooling Accelero Twin Turbo II GPU cooler
ASUS VE228T 21.5" Monitor
MS Sidewinder X4 keyboard
Cyborg R.A.T. 3 Mouse


I should also say that there is a good reason for putting the AMD RAM into the music build rather than this one; recording/mixing software eats RAM by the bucket-load and needs it as fast as possible so I'd rather not put the 8GB generic stuff in that build and that RAM was designed for the FX processor family, one of which will be going in that build. I figured if I'm running the Mushkin in dual-channel anyway, it wouldn't do any harm to chuck the spare generic sticks into the spare slots.

Dont mix and match RAM. You dont need more than 8gb anyway, and if you're spending more on a gpu cooler, why not just get a card with a better gpu cooler on it to start with? Also, you know on AMD cards it voids the warranty to take the cooler off

Well, I already bought the GPU and it was actually much cheaper to get the single-fan version and add an after-market cooler and the reported temps were better doing it that way. Didn't know it voided the warranty, though; but shouldn't that be down to Powercolor rather than AMD, since they'd be the ones liable? Need to check my warranty card.

I'm not particularly worried about that, the card's been running fine for over a month and has a good few hours of OCCT stress-testing under its belt. I know things can still go wrong very easily but... well, it seems to work.

It should be down to the brand, rather than AMD - but neither party seem to want to honour the warranty after the cooler is taken off.

nvidia seem to back developers and enthusiasts more though, and so most of their cards do honour the warranty.

I will say this can change country by country - in the UK, no AMD manufacturers will honour the warranty, although in America I hear some do.

Here's a review which tests the 3570K but also includes the 8150 including both in over-clocked states. Check out all the pages and see if that helps cement your new direction too!

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/cpus/2012/05/01/intel-core-i5-3570k-cpu-review/1

As for future-proofing - well 1155 socket ends with Ivy Bridge so sure, this will be the end of the line but the CPU is powerful enough to last for a good couple of years I'd expect, especially when over-clocked.

Getting an AMD AM3+ socket will last you longer because they are releasing at least one more generation of Bulldozer (piledriver). Now whether it will be any good is anyone's guess...but currently if you were to spend ~£150 on a cpu the 3570k is a lot better than the 8150.

If you do go AMD then there is no advantage in gaming for the 8150 over the 4100 if you take into account the different clock speeds:
http://www.guru3d.com/article/amd-fx-8150--8120-6100-and-4100-performance-review/10
but the 8-core is much better at multi-threaded tasks (if you can find anything that uses all 8).

There are good deals on the AMD chips at the moment. Here's a 4100 for £68:
http://www.aria.co.uk/SuperSpecials...Retail+**£10+AMD+Cashback!**+?productId=46818

The truth is though that at the moment you are better off getting fewer, better performing cores (intel) over more, slower cores (AMD).

As for the RAM - get a matched set. It will just save hassle. I'd get an 8GB kit (2x4GB sticks). You can always add another kit to get 16GB since the board has 4 slots if you find 8GB isn't enough for your editing. You'll also want it to be low profile because of your cooler.

Don't worry about RAM speed so much if you go with Intel. The memory controller really doesn't care above about 1866. 1600 is what most people go for, you are going to be limited by CPU speed first.

You'll get 2x PCIE3.0x8 on that g45 which will easily handle any 2 GPUs currently in existance...and then some.

Master&Puppet said:

The 4100 will clock to 4.1-4.2GHz on the stock cooler (the 4170 is clocked to that at stock remember). At that clock it will be a fine gaming cpu (and better than an i3). The 8150 is a complete waste of money for gaming (games won't use all those threads).

+1 for the 750w corsair. Amd over-clocks are heavy on the power.

Intel 3570 is ultimately the gamer's cpu of choice at the moment if you can free up the cash:

FX4100+mobo+NH-D14=£220

3570k+MSI z77a-g45=£260

I wouldn't recommend the g43. It is cheaper but you won't get to play with the Vcore much at all. Also going for intel means you can save £10 and get a smaller, 650w psu.

On the stock cooler the 3570k will still be happy over-clocking to ~4.1 which is significantly more powerful than the 4100 at any clock and you can always get a cooler later but that is just food for thought.

Also you might want to consider kits like these to save money:

http://www.aria.co.uk/SuperSpecials...rebones+Kit+w/+3+FREE+Games!+?productId=50872

http://www.aria.co.uk/SuperSpecials...rebones+Kit+w/+2+FREE+Games!+?productId=50862

Personally I would spend the money on the CPU rather than the SSD. Once the game has loaded an SSD isn't going to make things any better.

Click to expand...

this.